Hello, everyone, and welcome to 100 Climate Conversations. I’d like to acknowledge that we’re meeting on the traditional lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and pay my respects to their Elders past and present. Today is number 92 of 100 conversations happening here every Friday. The series presents 100 visionary Australians who are taking positive action to respond to the most critical issue of our time: climate change. We’re recording live today in the Boiler Hall of the Powerhouse museum. Before it was home to the museum, it was the Ultimo Power Station. Built in 1899, it supplied coal-powered electricity to Sydney’s tram system right up until the 1960s. So, it’s fitting that in this Powerhouse museum, we shift our focus forward to the solutions to the climate crisis. My name is Marian Wilkinson and I’ve written and broadcast many stories about climate change. My latest book, The Carbon Club, describes the fraught political battles over our climate policy. Penny Sharpe has been a member of the New South Wales Legislative Council since 2005, and in March this year she became the New South Wales Minister for Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Heritage. Penny is now at the centre of the great clean energy transition in this state. She’s compared the task with pulling off a new industrial revolution in just 15 years. So, please join me in welcoming Penny Sharpe. When you were appointed minister, you said the choices that we make this decade will really set up what future generations inherit. As the person who’ll be making many of those choices, do you think a lot about the responsibility that rests on your shoulders over the next four years?

Yes, I do. I mean, I think it’s right. We’re at this precipice where the window for really taking action on climate change is becoming smaller and smaller, and we’re already experiencing the effects of that. So, my view is that for politicians, we’re not here for a long time, but the time that we are here, we have to do as much as we can in the time that we’ve got. And that, I think, is the way that I think about the responsibility and try to not waste a day in just pushing forward as far as we can, as quickly as we can.

Now, back when you first entered parliament, you had the reputation, as one reporter put it, as a hellraising activist. In your maiden speech, you said you joined the Labor Party at 19 because you wanted to save the world, no less. But where did that passion come from?

For me, as a young person, I grew up in Canberra. My parents were not overly political people, but they were interested in politics. But there were just a few things that happened as a young person that really made me question what was going on and why the world was the way it was. It was particularly when I was very young, there’s a whole issue when there was the big famine in Africa and our TV screens were filled with starving children. And at the same time, it was when the Reagan administration was building the Star Wars project: this idea that we’d spend billions of dollars in space to try and kill people. And that really had a really profound impact on me as a young person about: Why is it like that? Surely the world should be about trying to care for and look after everyone. And this seemed a very big mismatch. And that was very influential for me. Then there are sort of practical things, as well. As a young woman growing up in Canberra, one of the things that’s driven me in politics has been reproductive rights for women, because I experienced, you know, friends having unplanned pregnancies and really struggling with how they were going to deal with that issue. And that was a very big issue for me. And, essentially, I was pretty opinionated and just decided that you couldn’t just talk about things all the time. You had to be involved in where the decisions are being made.

Well, when you did come into the Legislative Council in New South Wales, you were, I think, were the first openly gay woman, but the first probably openly gay parent in the Upper House. But under the law at the time, you weren’t even recognised as the parent of your children. How much did this influence you, do you think, in your willingness to take on difficult political battles?

It’s one of those strange things that you think the fact that you’re gay is pretty unremarkable. But it is remarkable when at the time you saw the inequality in the law that existed. I think having kids was one of those real daunting moments. It’s like: Well, I’m not recognised as their mother. So, look, it was important. I think, to me as a new politician, it was one of those things that was, you know: How much do I want to be known as the gay politician? I really didn’t want that. But in the end, I think I realised that my colleagues and others look to you for: What do you think about this? And when you can explain what it means, I think that sort of lived experience – I think, you know, why I really support diverse parliaments is that lived experience that people bring into it, I think, helps everyone understand what it really means at that very fine family level to not be recognised as the parent of your child. And that helped me stand up. And then in the end I think it was really about confidence to go: No, this is part of who I am and if I don’t speak up, I don’t know who else is going to.

When did you realise that climate change was going to be one of those big issues that you had to direct your energy and passion into?

We’ve known about challenges to the climate for a long time, and I think it’s one of those things that I was sort of aware of. I don’t know that it was something that I ever contemplated I’d be sitting here as the Minister for Climate Change with some of the levers in my hands around that. But I think, no, I don’t think anyone can ignore it. This is really about the future, not just of us here in New South Wales, but the whole globe.

Well, as you say, you are now in the hot seat. I think if you look at the big picture, you’ve got something over maybe six years, if you’re lucky, to get New South Wales producing about 80% of its electricity from renewables. What do you think are your chances of being able to do that?

Look, I actually am pretty optimistic about that. I mean, the thing is that we have the technology. And in a bipartisan way in New South Wales, which is very important. We’ve got support for the energy roadmap that was developed under the previous government, which really is the planned approach about how we manage the exit of coal-fired power and get as much renewable energy generation, and get the transmission right and the storage there. We’ve got a plan. We’re actually progressing on the plan pretty well. There’s some bumps along the way. But, look, it is absolutely achievable. The real task here is to keep the focus, to make sure that we remove the barriers that are emerging around getting that done. And some of those things are not actually about the windmills or the solar farms. They’re about: Where do we get the workforce to do the work? How do we make sure that the global supply chains are there, given there’s a global race to do this work? And I think, for me, that’s the part that we’ve got to really keep focusing on all the time to make sure that the plan’s in place. We’re now at the implementation phase and we’ve just got to get the barriers out of the way and keep going with it.

Well, with that plan being in place, we’re very lucky to be doing this conversation now because you’ve just announced that you’re going to put legislation into parliament to enshrine in law the state’s emissions reduction targets. Tell us what’s in those targets and what is the body that you’re setting up to oversight these targets.

Look, I’m really thrilled that we’ve introduced this bill. It’s still yet to get through the parliament. But the important thing about this is that we are legislating the targets. So, it’s the 50% by 2030 to get to net zero by 2050, with the ability to do interim targets. But what we’ve attached to that, which I think is actually the very important part, is the establishment of an independent Net Zero Commission. It’s really the body that’s going to hold – not just myself as the minister, or this government – but the governments out to 2050 to account for: How we are getting there; whether we’re meeting the targets. What are the options that we’ve got to do? How do each of the sectors need to decarbonise and how they are going with all of that? The Commission itself will report independently to the Parliament annually. We’re setting up a parliamentary committee that will also be able to interrogate and really bring the public and the various industry and other stakeholders into the conversation. At the end of the day, the government has to be held accountable for the advice that it takes up and the actions that it will take to ensure that we stay on track to get to net zero. To 2030, it’s looking pretty good. When I look at all of the figures from where I sit at the moment, we’ve got a lot of work to do to really plan out and understand that decarbonisation is not just about our electricity system. It’s about transport. It’s about agriculture. It’s about housing. It’s all of those things. And that’s what the Net Zero Commission’s for.

Well, on the basics of electricity, we heard energy ministers talk a lot for some years now about the huge task of building the transmission wires that are going to link the big renewable projects, the big wind farms, the big solar farms to the electricity network in this state, and of course, linking up to Victoria and South Australia and Queensland. But it’s still not happening fast enough. Briefly, can you tell me why can’t those problems be fixed – those problems of actually getting the transmission building on track?

Look, I think that it’s – there’s a couple of issues. One is we’re building transmission lines in a way and across lands that people hadn’t really contemplated was going to happen in the way that it is. And landholders and local communities in regional areas I think have real concerns about what that means. So far, I think we’re struggling to really explain and work more closely with communities to let them see and really experience the benefits that will come with that, as well as the kind of challenges on the way. But I do think that the planning is in place, but we do have to push ahead. There’s currently a big discussion about whether we could underground all of those transmission lines. We just can’t. And one of the things that we might be able to do a little bit, but the length that we’ve got, the time it would take and the costs that would be involved would mean that we would blow out the renewable energy transition in a timeframe that we just can’t afford to do.

So, in the end, will there be compulsory acquisition of land to do this?

Look, I would really hope not, but I don’t think we can rule it out. I know that the various organisations that are doing the transmission are working closely with landholders. There are a lot of landholders who have signed up and are working through that. There are some who are very concerned. We’ve just got to keep doing that work. I would hope not, but I’m not going to rule it out.

There’s been quite a few people expressing that anxiety because of this delay, that we’re actually seeing investment plummeting in building new renewable energy projects, especially big wind farms and big solar farms. The New South Wales Planning Department, your fellow department, has also not been approving them. Given the investment we need in these big renewable projects, do you think you can turn this around?

I do. I really do think we can. The good news is that there are lots of people who want to build projects in New South Wales. There’s currently 27 projects in the planning, and I think around another 60 that we’re waiting for their EISs for that. So, the pipeline is okay. The challenge is how do we make that quicker and how do we make it, I think, clearer and give certainty to those that want to invest – that they’ll at least have a good timeframe for whether they’re getting a yes or a no. I think we need to work on that. I’m working really closely with the Planning Minister. One of the things when we came in was that we inherited a plan. We really kicked the tyres on that plan. And one of the things that the government that I’m in, we’ve now made this a whole-of-government priority, bringing all of those issues together to again try and remove all of those barriers. Planning certainty is one of them. With my environment hat on too, we need to make sure that we’re looking after the natural environment as we do this as well. And there are some pretty pointy parts of that discussion. But I again think we can coordinate that way and give a lot more certainty. And that’s really what I’m focusing on as we try to get these things out of the ground.

Particularly because we’re talking about this in the week that the Voice referendum is going to be decided. I am curious about what you think about the need to bring Indigenous landholders into the conversation, much more about the use of large swathes of land for things like wind projects, onshore and offshore, and solar farms. Can we do better in this space?

We can do better, but there’s actually been good progress. If I just talk about the Central-West Orana Renewable Energy Zone, which is the one that’s really coming out of the ground as we speak. I’ve met with the Aboriginal community and various groups out there. I’m going back again in a month or so. We’ve established guidelines for how people need to work with and consult properly with Aboriginal communities. But more than that, I think that those committees are very focused on the opportunities here. They’ve got land. They also see the legacy opportunities: we need to build new housing. They’re looking at maybe just not temporary housing, but we can put this housing in, and it’ll actually have a future long after the project has finished. I feel a lot of excitement and interest from Aboriginal land councils and Aboriginal Elders and those in and around Dubbo, for example, who see the opportunity. They see the opportunity for work and for real career pathways for young people in their communities. So, I think there’s – I sense, actually, for those who know a lot about it and have been engaged, are really interested in what the opportunities bring. Having said that, I think there is a real issue generally with consultation with Aboriginal people, and I worry a lot about actually consultation fatigue. Organisations who everyone’s knocking on their door: they don’t have the extra resources to actually manage that. That’s one of the things that we’re sort of thinking through about how we can better support them to be able to really work with the various proponents who are coming into their community and actually want to work with them.

Well, of course, one of the most vexed and difficult issues you have to deal with is the closing of the coal-fired power stations in New South Wales that have been the backbone of our energy supply here. One of the largest stations, Eraring, is supposed to close in two years, but you’re in talks now with the owners to keep it open at what will be a large cost to the taxpayers. Why are you doing that? Why are you in talks to keep it open?

Well, the first thing I’d say is I’m not certain that it’s going to be a large cost to taxpayers. We need to have a discussion with Origin about the future of Eraring. But the view very much of the government is that we don’t want them open a day longer and we don’t want them actually to cost a cent more. This is an organisation that’s got 4.5 million customers that they need to service. The idea that they could just shut overnight I think is probably a much bigger conversation that we’re having with them. Look, my preference is we need to get coal-fired power out, but we also need to recognise where we are in that transition, and managing that careful exit while we’re going in. I mean, I’d point to the closure of Liddell. Liddell power plant was a very big plant. Seven years planning to actually do that. The issue that we’ve got here is it’s a very short period of time, and we need to work through that. But I think that we can work through it, and as I said, hopefully not open for very much longer.

Right. The national Energy Market Operator said that Eraring would only need to stay open if the new renewable networks and infrastructure doesn’t get built on time. So, is that the race you’re in to get –

Yes, that is. I mean, that’s – you know, our whole point is we’re trying to decarbonise our electricity sector. It’s very hard if you still got a very large coal-fired power station sitting there. But having said that, you know, the one thing that IEMO doesn’t factor in is construction risk. So, delays in planning or construction because of supply chain or workforce, that’s the sort of hedging that we’re trying to work through, which is: How do we get the rest of this in and on time? If it’s going well, it just means that Eraring closes sooner. And so, that’s the race that we’re on. We’ve got some really great things happening. We’ve got the world’s largest batteries being built just up at Lake Munmorah. The Waratah Super Battery will make a huge difference and help us close the gap. The work that we’re doing with the Commonwealth Government: it’s great to have a Commonwealth government who’s focused on this transition now, putting real money into it. The Capacity Investment strategy: you know, we’ve partnered with Chris Bowen; we’re doubling the amount of firming technology that we’re going to be able to bring online. If that goes well, Eraring doesn’t need to stay open.

I wanted to ask you about rooftop solar. This comes up a lot when I talk to people, including in these conversations. It’s still booming in Australia. Australians love it. It almost, I think, rivals the amount of power we’re getting from large-scale solar farms. But so much of this power from rooftop solar is wasted because it can’t be brought into the grid or stored. I know you’re looking at this issue, but how can this power be better utilised?

Well, the first thing we need to do is just harness the excitement that Australians have for rooftop solar, the growing love of EVs, all of those things. That distributed power is actually the sort of power plants that give us, again, that extra insurance as we’re building out that large infrastructure. I’m really committed to getting that – harnessing that excitement to find ways that the community can do that more easily. So, we’ve got some work to do, which is technical things like smart meters and regular standards. You know, we don’t want to have this situation where everyone’s got different connections. It’s already complicated enough. Community batteries is the other part of it. How do we actually have an equitable transition? Not everyone can afford to have rooftop solar, but we’re already opening community batteries where those that are renting, or are in strata or in places that are not suitable for solar, can actually start using solar as well. There’s a huge plan there. Probably the next six months is the big extra piece of work that we’ll be doing to see how we can bring that together. But I think the biggest one there is actually getting the standards right, being really clear, but then also finding the right incentives for people so that they can access and really get on with it. Because people want to do it and we need to help them, particularly renters.

What’s your feeling about this whole split between whether you go for community batteries or household batteries or batteries for big apartment blocks? It’s a very murky kind of area and people seem to have a lot of difficulty in.

Yeah, I think so. In some ways, I just think it’s a little bit case by case, which makes it more complicated. But I think you have to. You’ve got old unit blocks, which we really got to work on some pretty innovative ideas around how you can retrofit those. I mean, the good thing is we are building a lot of new ones, and, again, making sure that when we’re building them that they actually have thought about these things. And there’s been some decisions made about the infrastructure that needs to be put in there. I think it is just the mix. I mean, one of the things I say about this transition is that we need to be doing all of it at the same time. And it’s not just one thing.

One of the toughest problems for Australia, but particularly New South Wales in this energy transition, is what happens to manufacturing jobs. Is there, do you think, a realistic timetable for green hydrogen or renewables, with backup like big batteries, to replace gas in manufacturing in the state? Or are you still looking at building new gas plants for manufacturing?

This is a really important part of it. I mean, we recognise the need for gas in terms of firming, really, for the peaking plants for just general supply. But we’re working really hard with those heavy emitters on the options around things like hydrogen. For example, we just announced the new money for the Hydrogen Hub in the Hunter. Really exciting things going on there. Orica partnering with Origin Future Fuels to really get out of the ground realistic opportunities for hydrogen. They are also trialling it in some of the transport vehicles as they get this sort of pilot out of the ground. The bigger issue for us is that we’re very focused on and again, very happy, that the Federal Government is going to put significant money into hydrogen. We know that there’s a huge export opportunity as well as domestic. We’ve got to get these right if these manufacturers are going to be able to decarbonise – they are very focused on it; they want to make it work as well. So, I think, you know, everyone’s pretty much throwing everything at this. We know the technology works. We’ve got to sort of get it at scale as quickly as possible. The biggest challenge we’ll have around the hydrogen piece, though, is how much extra renewable energy we need to make it so that, beyond our own domestic supply, to make sure that we can get that. And that’s what we’re looking at too.

And do you think you will need new gas plants in the interim?

We’ll have the peaking plants. So, the expectation is, in New South Wales, we’ll have about seven peaking plants. But the other thing that we’re looking at very much is, also, gas storage.

New ones or some of the current ones?

So, we’ve got four or five now, and I think there’s a couple more coming on, but seven is around where we’re at. A lot of this is about whether people will actually invest in it, whether they think that it’s worth it. It might be the case that it isn’t, as we get – again, the whole challenge is here, the more renewables we have, the less we need fossil fuels. And that’s what we’re trying to get to.

I want to come to adaptation, because that’s a big part of your job. And it was interesting that you talked about the whole-of-government approach because adaptation is all about that. We know that one of the big things with climate change is heatwaves being more frequent and more deadly. And we also know that they’re really going to hit people in those very big swathes of Western Sydney and south-west Sydney. So, I’m very curious why obvious adaptation strategies like banning black roofing, increasing shade trees around houses and streets have been so controversial. And, you know, there was a massive dispute about it in the last government. Can you do anything to change that? I mean, do we really need black roofing?

I think we already are. So, we’ve just signed up to the start of the new BASIX program that is, again: light roofs are going to be back on, double glazing, better energy-efficient homes. As the Environment Minister as well – that tree canopy in Western Sydney, the difference that that makes. We cannot ignore the reality of people living in Western Sydney where it is 10 to 15 degrees hotter. It actually is a health hazard. People die as a result of that kind of heat stress, and that is not getting better any time soon. So, I’m really focused and the Government’s really focused, again, on this. We know the benefits if you live in areas that are greener and cooler. We’re looking at all of the ways we can do that. But energy-efficient homes is something that we’re very focused on. I mean, our government is very focused on building a lot of new housing. There’s an opportunity there. All of those new houses that will be approved in the future will have to be sort of seven-star-rated. They’ll have water. They’ll have light roofs. They’ll have energy efficiency. Look, Australian housing is really very poor in that. And the other part we’ve got to do, and that’s the big social justice and equity piece here, is we’re working very hard with the Federal Government, again, looking at retrofitting some of the worst housing in our social housing stock to really do energy efficiency. I’d like to do a lot more solar. It’s not really just about solar. It’s actually about insulation, better appliances and those kind of things. And we’ll be partnering very closely with the Commonwealth on that as well. Retrofit is the big piece across all of our cities in our regions to deal with heat and it’s very expensive. We’ve got to find better ways to do it.

The other thing that some teachers have certainly raised with me is teaching and learning in these heatwave conditions. Now, New South Wales does have a Cooler Classrooms Program to try and get more reverse-cycle air conditioning into schools. Do you see with what we’re seeing in the temperature increases at the moment that you’re really going to have to expand that program to areas you might not have thought about in the past?

Look, I think that’s right. I mean, I think there’s a couple of other things, though. In new areas where there are new schools being built, the design of new schools now is much better. They’re actually designed for thermal efficiency and cross ventilation – not sort of like the old schools that we went to where you were locked in this terrible brick room. So, I think that there’s design elements, but again, the retrofitting is the issue. A lot of schools are doing that. We’re working through all the time in terms of what we’re investing around that. And probably the reality is that we will over time, governments are going to have to invest more. We need our kids to be able to learn in environments that are not only just safe, but actually conducive to learning. Every teacher knows that. Every kid who’s sat in a very hot classroom also understands that.

People are talking a lot now that we’re going to face another grim bushfire season. Having interviewed a lot of bushfire victims after Black Summer, one of the things that came across from many was that they wanted to be independent of the electricity grid. They want to have local and home-based solar battery units so they can keep pumping water and accessing power when the grid gets knocked out. Is that progressing? How important do you think it is in terms of helping people who are in bushfire hotspots?

It is definitely progressing. I know three communities in New South Wales: in Tathra, in Cobargo and in Bawley Point – South coast, you know, the bushfires, and the Tathra bushfires were earlier. They learnt that lesson when they were cut off. I’ve sat down with the community members – they’re doing an enormous amount of work bringing in all the different agencies so that not only can they be connected to the grid, but also they can become an island if it gets cut off. That work is underway. I think we’re going to be opening a battery very soon down at Bawley Point, for example. The whole point being that that actually will allow that community that’s got one road in and one road out to be self-sufficient. So, yes, it is happening, but it needs to happen at scale. The bushfire risk is enormous and, as we know, we’re seeing bushfires in areas that we’ve never seen before. It is going to be a real challenge.

Probably one of the biggest challenges for you is dealing with the ravages of climate change on our environment, because you’re Environment Minister as well, of course. We know that the Black Summer fires killed thousands of koalas, millions of wildlife, but thousands of koalas in this state. Koalas are now a threatened species. You have announced a new national park in the Coffs Harbour region to try and protect them. But you’ve come under a lot of criticism for still allowing logging in the proposed national park area. Why is it so difficult to stop the logging now given the state of the koala population?

Well, the first thing we have done is we have actually stopped logging in some of those areas. So, there are very important areas called koala hubs, which are known to be the key habitat, but also where the koalas are actively living and moving around. That’s about 5% of the park, but it’s important to know that that’s around 42% of where koalas have been seen. So, they’ve tracked, and we know they’re there. That’s the first part of it. We are going to be getting the Great Koala National Park. It’s going to be incredibly important for conservation, but also all of the other benefits that you get by the creation of a national park. But it does take time. 176,000 hectares of which is currently state forests, of which there are wood supply agreements that are in place. All of those things need to be taken into account as we work through it. We’ve set up the process that’s starting. We want it to happen as quickly as possible, but there are communities and others who are impacted by this, and we need to work out what that means for them, and we need to do that as quickly as possible.

I think you sat on the Upper House Committee that found that koalas may be on track to be extinct as early as 2050 in New South Wales, which is a pretty shocking statistic. And when I thought about it, I thought: Well, that’ll be when your daughter is your age; we could be looking at koalas being extinct in New South Wales. You’ve said if we can’t save the koalas, we’re in a lot of trouble. Realistically, how optimistic are you that we will save them from extinction?

No, I think we can. I think we have to. Koalas are one of those things that every Australian knows and loves. You cannot stand next to a koala and not smile and feel a connection to, you know – just the amazing idea that we have these beautiful creatures that just live here and nowhere else on Earth. The point for me that I make is if we can’t save them when they are such a known animal, then what does it mean for the rest of our protection of the environment? I do think we can. I believe that there is actually great unanimity in our community that we need to save them, and the people want to see them in the wild. That my daughter’s children, if she has them, will be able to see them in the wild and know that we can turn that around. I do believe we can do it, in fact. But I also don’t think it’s sort of a choice. We have to do it.

Well, of course, you’ve just received the Henry review on the state’s biodiversity and the state of the Biodiversity Act. But Dr Ken Henry, who led this report, painted a very dire picture of New South Wales. We have, I think, over 900, nearly 1000 threatened species in the state, and perhaps only 50% of them are expected to survive in the next 100 years. And part of the big problem is climate change. His review said that you need to change the state’s Biodiversity Act, and one of the reasons you need to change it is to address climate change impacts on wildlife and wild places. Will you do that?

That’s what we’re working through now. But yes, we have to. I mean, the Henry review gave us one very clear message, which is that the current laws are failing. No one can receive that report and suggest that we don’t do anything about it, but it touches across government as well. There’s obviously a whole lot of issues about what happens on private land, what we do with our public land, how do our planning laws fit into all of that. And that’s the way that we’re addressing it, basically myself and the Minister for Regional New South Wales and Agriculture as well. We’re going to work very carefully through that across government to say: How do we respond to this? We cannot suggest for a minute that the current laws are working. We’ve got to work through that to see what they look like. You know, I’m a bit frustrated that the laws that were put in place five years ago really tore apart the previous threatened species protections that Labor had put in place. We did say at the time that it was not going to work. But now it’s on us to work out how we’re going to fix it. And I think one of the things some people say: Oh, you just go back to the way you did it before. But you can’t unscramble that omelette. You need to build a new system. And that’s what we’re going to be working through, probably in the next 12 months.

Well, one of the things that a lot of people are asking is: In this state legislation, will there be some sort of climate trigger? Because of the emphasis in the report on the impact of climate change on wildlife and the extinction of threatened species, will you be able to, I guess, up the ability to intervene in approvals – on new coal mines, coal mine expansions, gas plant expansions, clearing for agriculture – if they are deemed significant enough to have a big emissions footprint?

I think that’s the issue that we’re working through now – how that would work. I think there’s a few things that come together in that question: one is we already have the EPA looking at climate change impact in relation to all of their licence holders, and that work is very much underway and in its own way has its own built-in triggers. Similarly, our own planning system has the consideration of climate change. I’m really hoping, again, that the Net Zero Commission will provide advice around some of that. So, I think these things come together. There is work being undertaken, but it does need to be whole-of-government and our response needs to take that into account. When I think about the priorities around environment, climate change is number one, protecting what’s left, restoring what’s been harmed – they’re the top three ways that I think about everything that we’re doing. And what I hope [is] that at the end of the term, or the end of the time that I end up being in this role, we can see that we’ve made serious progress on all of those things.

I know it’s not your area of responsibility, but the federal Environment Act is facing very similar issues. It too has to be – well, it has been reviewed and now the Federal Government has to look at what change is in that. It’s probably a bit difficult for you. But personally, do you think that the climate change provisions of that act need to be strengthened, given that it will be working with the states?

Look, I just think that we all need to be making that effort and to have as high ambition as we can. And I know that Tanya Plibersek and Chris Bowen are doing that work. I’m very fortunate I work with both of them because they’re my counterparts federally, so I think they’re actively working that through. They’ve got to also get it through the Parliament, which is sometimes easier said than done. But I think that all of us should be having high ambition. I don’t think any of us are ignoring the need for climate change to be really front and centre in relation to how we design these new laws. And they’re working through that and I’m encouraging them to do so. And also, we’re obviously keeping an eye out. We want to align as closely as possible that we can be working together. Part of the challenges around delivering things like housing and delivering things like renewable energy projects is that: How can we make sure that if we don’t want huge timeframes that we can, you know, protect the environment? That sort of ideas of early yeses, but also early nos – those are the things that we’re really thinking about and trying to bring together.

On the bigger picture and looking forward to the future. You, I’m sure, are acutely aware that both in Australia and around the world there is an increasing number of climate change lawsuits being directed against the fossil fuel companies as well as against government. We saw one recently here before the Federal Court. A few weeks ago, the state of California, led by Governor Newsom, launched a huge lawsuit against several big oil and gas companies, including ones that operate here, BP and Chevron. What do you think about those lawsuits, and do you think that they are ultimately going to have a big impact here in Australia?

I think they already are. I mean, the changes to the EPA that was as a result of legal action. And I think that, again, as communities and society are finding ways to deal with the urgency of climate change, I think they’ll use every tool in the toolkit – whether it’s legislation, whether it’s lobbying and through politics, whether it’s through advocacy. But also, you know, we’re seeing protests as well. I think people will use all of the elements to bring attention to what is very, very urgent. Keep people like me honest. And I think just keeping an eye to how we design our laws as well so that they are actually, you know, sufficiently ambitious to make sure that we’re going to make a difference.

You mentioned the issue of protests on climate change. You’ve had a long history of supporting protests for political change, but young climate activists now are taking risky direct-action protests to try and block – specifically block fossil fuel projects. We’ve seen that in New South Wales and in WA. But now they are facing increasingly severe penalties, including jail sentences. New South Wales has very tough legislation which Labor supported. What do you say to these young activists who are frustrated and angry about the pace of change and will continue to take direct action?

Well, what I say to every young person is that they should stand up and speak out, and that they should be involved in protest. I’ve been involved in many. I do believe it’s part of how things change. It’s part of how you shape the world for the future is by standing up and speaking out. I think that the way in which you protest is an issue, and there are safety concerns and there are a range of things that really, I think, people need to be aware of. But the important part is that you can absolutely protest and make your voice heard. I’ve been to the kids’ climate change rallies with my children and will continue to go and will continue to support them. I actually think young people are demanding so much more of oldies like me, and I think they will continue to demand that. They’ll demand that through the ballot box. They’ll demand that through protest. They’re already demanding it through becoming lawyers and environmental activists in all areas, whether they’re working at local government or whatever. So, my big message is: You’ve got to stand up and speak out. Change doesn’t happen just by thinking about it or arguing with people at parties. It happens because you decide to care about it. And frankly, the more people that decide to care about it, the more my job becomes easier because we have the support to take stronger action faster.

Do you think there will be any appetite in your government for winding back some of the penalties on climate protesters?

My understanding is that there’ll be a review at some point. I’m not going to commit to how we can deal with that. But, look, we accept and understand how important protest is. It’s a fundamental part of being a citizen. And as I said to you, it is – politicians don’t just do things because they feel like it. Sometimes I’d like to think that I do. I’ve given that a red-hot go, but that’s really standing on the shoulders of people who’ve done a huge amount of work. Who’ve written the submissions, who stood in the streets, who’ve done that work. And I think we should continue to do that. It’s part of what our democracy is about.

You mentioned your kids are going to climate protests. They are at the age where they’re exposed to a lot of news and information about climate change. A lot of it can be very depressing, if not frightening for that generation. What do you tell your kids to give them some hope?

Well, they tell me a lot of things already. I mean, I notice it in my 13-year-old, who’s my youngest, I think he really is suffering from that climate anxiety. He hears the news and he thinks about that and he asks me about that. And I just say what I always say, which is that: We need to do as much as we can, as quickly as we can. And that’s what I’m trying to do. My 19-year-old son, which I’ll share with you, though he’s a bit more – he thinks he’s very funny. But in the family group chat recently, I sent him a TikTok, which is a lovely plant. You know, someone with beautiful plants. It was after the Eraring had been in the news. He just sent it back and said: Don’t send me plants; you’re keeping coal-fired power open longer. So, you know, I think that what I say to my kids is: We’re working really hard on doing that. But I think, like all young people, they want me and they want politicians to do more and quickly. They see this as part of their future and that we need to protect it and that we’re not doing enough. And I think, you know, I say to them: I’m doing my best. And I’m going to do that. But they keep it real for me. And I think that is really important, and I’m very lucky that they do that.

Okay. As you look ahead to the next four years on the issue of climate change and its impacts, what are you most concerned about? Is it the sort of very sort of fundamental things about the next bushfire season, or are there issues that you think are, in a way, that we’re ignoring – that you think we should probably put a greater focus on?

I think that the fragility of political consensus is something that really worries me. I think Australia is 15 years behind because of the decisions that Tony Abbott made and we lost that consensus around climate change. There was a time when John Howard supported action. We were moving towards that. Then all of a sudden it was the easiest thing in the world to say no. When I am dealing with the renewable energy transition, I’m seeing some of that fracturing, this idea: No, we shouldn’t be doing this; we should be putting it off. That really divisive thing, which is not – at the end of the day, what I worry about is that we’ve got to remember why we’re doing all of these things. It’s not because it’s nice to have or there is some ideological push around this. We need to do renewable energy because that is the safest way to protect the planet into the future. We need to make these changes and change the way our transport system works. Change the way that manufacturing and agriculture works. Because this is actually fundamentally about the health and wellbeing and the prosperity of humanity on this planet. And so, for me, the thing that worries me is: How do we keep the consensus? How do we ensure that people understand why we’re doing it when things are hard, when electricity prices are hard, and people are doing it tough. It’s a pretty hard thing to say: You should just be doing this for the planet. When you’re making decisions about whether you get the medicine you need or you pay your electricity bill. Like that is the reality thing. So, the things that worry me are about: How can we make sure that people understand why we need to do this and that it’s not something that we’re just choosing to do, and how do we make sure we can build support for that? How do we make that transition less bumpy, particularly for people who are the most vulnerable and feel the impacts the most? Because I think losing support for transition means we’re putting the emissions reduction tasks back again, and the window isn’t there for us to do that.

Well, over the next four years, have you got some strategies to keep yourself optimistic and positive?

I think I’m fundamentally optimistic. Like, I sort of accept the fact that I can’t do everything, and I accept the fact that not everyone is going to be happy with what I do, no matter what it is. But I really believe that there is just such community support and love for and the need for us to protect our environment, the understanding of how important that is to wellbeing and our prosperity. Action on climate change is something, you know, if we look across, even just in Australia, the governments and the non-major party people who are being elected are showing a very strong will of the Australian people. They want action on this, and I really believe they’ll keep pushing us. And we’ve got all those young people coming through and they’re definitely letting us do it. So, I’m fundamentally optimistic. There are days when you think: We’re never going to get there. I am worried about the pace of change. But part of this is you just got to get up every day and see what you can do. And that’s the way I’m going to deal with it.

Well, thank you very much. Please join me in thanking Penny Sharpe with a round of applause. To follow the program online you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And visit the 100 Climate Conversations exhibition or join us for a live recording, go to 100climateconversations.com.

This is a significant new project for the museum and the records of these conversations will form a new climate change archive preserved for future generations in the Powerhouse collection of over 500,000 objects that tell the stories of our time. It is particularly important to First Nations peoples to preserve conversations like this, building on the oral histories and traditions of passing down our knowledges, sciences and innovations which we know allowed our Countries to thrive for tens of thousands of years.