This is 100 Climate Conversations. Welcome and thank you for joining us. Yiradhumarang mudyi, Rae Johnston youwin nahdee, Wiradjuri yinhaa baladoo. Hello, friends. My name is Rae Johnston. I’m a Wiradjuri woman. I was born and raised though on Dharug and Gundungurra Country. And that’s where I have responsibilities to community and Country. And it’s also where I live today. And I want to acknowledge that it is a great honour to be here working today on the Unceded land of the Gadigal and I want to pay my deepest respects to their Elders, past and present, for the great sacrifices that they have made so that we can be here today. As we begin today’s conversation, it is important to remember and to recognise that the First Nations peoples of this continent are the world’s first innovators, scientists, technologists and understanding those perspectives is absolutely crucial if we’re going to move forward on this planet with solving these issues. Today is number 67 of 100 conversations that are happening every Friday. The series presents 100 visionary Australians that are taking positive action to respond to the most critical issue of our time, which is climate change. We are recording live today in the boiler hall of the Powerhouse Museum. Now, before it was a museum, this was the Ultimo power station. It was built in 1899 and it supplied coal-powered electricity to Sydney’s tram system all the way up into the 1960s. So, in the context of this architectural artefact, we are shifting our focus forward to the innovations of the net zero revolution. Now Joe Morrison is group chief executive of the Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation, a Commonwealth entity assisting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to realise economic, cultural and environmental benefits that the ownership and management of land, water and water-related rights can bring. Now, Joe previously led the Northern Land Council, implementing an overhaul of its governance and functions and settling old land claims before which he was CEO of the Northern Australian Indigenous Land and Sea Management Alliance. We are so thrilled to have him join us today. Please join me in welcoming Joe. Now, Joe welcome. So, who’s your mob? Where are you from?

So, I hail from, and I grew up in a little town in the Northern Territory called Katherine. That is the lands and waters of my mother’s people. That’s the Dagoman people. And we’ve also got a connection to Moa Island in the Torres Strait through my father, as well. So, I spent most of my time in Katherine, and then a little bit of time in Darwin and more recently in southern Victoria.

So, tell me about young Joe’s life and what influenced you then to get on the path to where you are today?

Yes, well, that’s an interesting question. But, you know, growing up in a little outback town such as Katherine in northern Australia, which I still epitomise as being at the frontier of settlement between Indigenous people and settlers. And that’s because, really, Indigenous people really haven’t been embraced in their entirety in relation to developing their own aspirations and futures. Even though we’ve got a long history of land rights and native title in northern Australia and particularly around Katherine, with the Katherine Gorge land claim, that hasn’t really manifest in terms of targets around closing the gap and so forth. So, I grew up at a time where Indigenous people weren’t fully embraced by wider society. My father worked in the pastoral industry and my mother was working in the health care system, being a liaison officer at the Katherine hospitals. And I’ve got two brothers and two sisters, and you know, we grew up at a time where it’s pretty polarising to be Aboriginal and to identify as Aboriginal. And so, with the advent of land rights, and also the opposition to that, meant that there was somewhat of a path being set for me and that was to do something about the fact that Indigenous people were on the sidelines on their own country and watching a whole lot of things going on in their country. And that effectively made me think there’s something wrong with this picture here. I think we’ve got a lot of work to do to be able to ensure that the people who have always lived here and looked after this important part of the world are embraced and a part of the future of it.

Your first job after leaving school, was at the Northern Land Council back in the early ’90s, and you ended up there again back there as CEO in 2014 it was. What drew you back to that organisation?

I guess the attraction of wanting to do something for your own people and knowing that, as I said earlier, that there was a lot of polarising between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people. Half of the Northern Territory is owned by Aboriginal people – that make up 30% of the population – and they own most of the coastline. But still people were living in abject poverty, and I thought at the time that the Land Council was an important place to make those changes. And so, I went in there and settled a number of pretty old outstanding land claims, particularly the Kenbi land claim opposite Darwin – that had been standing for 38 years until I got there and got that settled. So, these things needed to be settled and as we’ve seen around the country, for Aboriginal people to have some level of participation in the national economy, they need the basis for them to have their country back.

Reflecting back on that time. What are some of the key experiences that have helped shape your work since?

I think it’s this connection between people and nature, I think. And obviously land rights as a movement in itself is one thing and there’s lots of nuances associated with that. But I think the connectivity between people and their country is something that’s fundamentally important, not just for Indigenous people, but I think for all Australians. And we hear about that when we hear stories from non-Indigenous people about the connection that they have with Australia. It’s very deep, obviously with its First Nations people and that was a lesson that I think still resonates in my mind and my heart, that the nation’s got to do more to embrace that, but also to feel the power of it I guess and bridge this gap between humanity and nature.

When did climate change start entering conversations in your work?

Probably earlier on in my life, actually. I remember travelling with my father and with other Aboriginal people in places like Arnhem Land, for instance, and also down on the Barkly Tablelands, where people had talked a lot about the changes in Country, both from a management point of view to the fact that there wasn’t fire in the landscape in some of these places anymore, but also the indicators in the food plants, but also the availability of food had changed quite rapidly and people were attributing that to changes in the weather, changes in their ability to harvest and perform their customary activities. And also, I guess really importantly, the changes that they had to make in the space of a couple of generations around how they managed fire, in particular.

So, you were a land management facilitator for the Northern Territory’s Parks and Wildlife Commission. That was from 1998 to 2005. And you were establishing the Land and Sea Ranger groups there throughout the Territory. What were the main concerns of the Ranger groups at the time? Was climate change a factor even then?

It was something that was obviously on the minds, particularly of old people. I premise that period of my life as being probably the most exciting because I was pretty young and I was basically living out the back of a car, working and visiting people in remote parts of the north. And sitting down and undertaking planning with people about, you know, this whole sort of post-determination environment that people were grappling with. And we heard about things like the homelands movement when people had been in communities, or these former mission settlements, and they move back out to their traditional estates. So, there was a lot of that still going on. And then people were asking the question, what do we do with our Country? We’ve been away from it for a little while, while we’ve been in missions. How do we reinstate our management practices against the tide of settler state interventions around stopping people from burning, for example? So, there was a lot of that question going on. People were seeing the changes in the landscape, the fact that woody thickening was taking place across the board, that the landscape was a lot more thicker, and they weren’t able to move across the landscape in the same way that they had in the past. So, there was a conversation about getting back to Country, but also importantly about the changes in the country and the need for them to reinstate their practices.

How have those sorts of questions and concerns changed since those early days of establishing those programs?

They’ve certainly changed insofar as that people are now using those as motivations to do things. And we’ve seen and been part of re-establishing people right across northern Australia through these large-scale, landscape-scale fire projects as a means of connecting people back to these special places that their ancestors had lived on, but also the ability for them to perform their customary activities, their ceremonial rites and their ability to do those things. Whilst obviously grappling with the question of future employment and economic development as being at the centre of it. So, how do people shift away from responding to third parties like mining companies who want to do something on their country, to actually doing something that’s more sustainable and akin to their own cultural nuances?

Have you seen climate change directly impact the communities and country that you work with?

I have because I think it was 2009. I was part of a consortium of people that wrote a report to the new Kevin Rudd Government about the impacts of climate change to remote Indigenous communities. And through that work we found out that people are disproportionately burdened by climate change, living in poor circumstances, low levels of infrastructure, but also being susceptible to current diseases and potential new diseases that might come down from the tropical north in countries to our north. And so, we’ve seen changes in the environment, changes in the ability for communities to respond to things because of poor infrastructure, but also their ability to deal with new threats, both to plants and animals, but also themselves with new diseases coming their way. So, we’ve seen things such as infrastructure being very important, where people aren’t able to get into health services and access those health services. And, given the fact that at the time many people were still dealing with what I would call third-party health problems, such as rheumatic heart disease, people were finding it very difficult to think about other things other than their immediate needs.

How was that report received? Was there any action taken?

Unfortunately, there wasn’t. There was certainly recognition of the pending sort of issues that were outlined in the report. And so, that’s some time ago now. And unfortunately, I still think that a lot of those issues that are highlighted are still there, probably even more exacerbated with infrastructure, in particular, but also Indigenous people’s ability to respond to things such as these increased cyclonic events, floods. And we’ve seen in more recent times what these large cyclones are doing. They’re going closer to these communities, they’re going a long way inland. And we’ve seen these flooding events, for example, the Fitzroy River flooding event this year as being a bit of a signal to, I think, people about the impacts of climate change and what that means for them.

So, as of 2021, you’ve been the CEO of the Indigenous land and Sea Corporation. We’ll get into some of the details of your work there a little later, but can you give us an overview of the organisation and also what it aims to do?

Yes, so the Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation (ILSC), which was established some 28 years ago, was established following the High Court’s decision in Mabo, which dealt with the question of terra nullius and a number of other things. And so, it was part of a package of deals that were being brokered by Indigenous leaders at the time, and the government knowing that at the time it was the Keating Government and then there was a change of government. So, the ILSC was established to assist particularly those Indigenous people around the country who could not meet the requirements of the Native Title Act. And one of those requirements was that people had to prove their continuous connection. And obviously when you factor in colonisation, when people are moved away from their country and put in missions and those sorts of things, that hurdle becomes a lot more harder. So, this organisation was established to assist with that and, as part of its architecture, it’s also got a fund that sits within the Future Fund at the moment and that supports the organisation to work with Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islanders around the country to acquire property, whether it’s land or whether it’s sea rights or quotas and fisheries and those sorts of things. And to give those rights back to those First Nations groups. So, that’s effectively what it does and what it has been doing for some time.

And you operate across the continent.

Yes, we’re a national organisation.

How do you partner with organisations and communities? Are those relationships kind of a case by case, different thing every time.

It is a case by case. But what we have seen – and I say when we started this Caring for Country movement, which is Aboriginal rangers, Aboriginal people doing things on their country in northern Australia some 30 years ago and it was only in northern Australia at the time and we were getting it working in western and central Arnhem Land, it’s now a national movement and it’s become so successful that people can’t get enough of these jobs and rangers. We can’t see enough of Elders being involved in those things. And so, it’s become a fundamental part of the fabric of the organisation, that I’m now the head of, in terms of its investment and the ability to partner with Indigenous groups. So, we’ve seen this movement now manifest in a number of Aboriginal corporations around the country with hundreds of native title determinations as well. And we are seeing that people have got a really high appetite to work with government, and one of those government agencies is the Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation to acquire property and to assist them with the management and development and to find economic opportunities alongside them as well. So, that’s what sort of partnering means for us is we respond to Indigenous interest. We don’t tell people what they do and what they should be doing on their country. It’s really responding to the aspirations.

So it’s community led.

It’s community led.

There’s been 6.2 million hectares of country added and $1.24 billion invested into the Indigenous states since 1995 through these partnerships. But can you tell us more of the impacts that the ILSC has had for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities?

I think, well, I’ve been here for almost three years and in my time here we’ve conducted a national consultation around the country working and talking to people about what it is that they want the ILSC to do. It’s the most comprehensive consultation that this organisation’s ever had with First Nations. And from that we’re hearing that people want us to be working alongside them, that they want to explore opportunities such as getting involved in the commercialisation of native bush foods, for example, with them. We’ve heard a lot about fire management and the ability to sell carbon offsets into the market, and we hear a lot about the appetite for that and other potential emerging industries. Renewable energy is another area where people are finding a keen interest, so they are the sorts of things that we’re starting to hear now where traditionally people were involved in agriculture in the form of pastoral industry, for example. So, we’ve seen a shift away from those sorts of things into more, I guess, unorthodox kinds of developments that’s more akin to their responsibilities to their community and their country.

Industries like bush foods as well are dominated by non-Indigenous businesses at the moment. So, getting Indigenous voices in those spaces is important, right?

Absolutely. I can say that’s one of the drivers, in fact, that Indigenous people are saying why they want to get control of the industry is to use their knowledge, their intellectual property, as being owned by them collectively as a means of empowering them and getting them involved in wealth generation for their communities. But, obviously, some of these things are pretty complex. It has been dominated by non-Indigenous people for a long period of time. So, there’s going to be a lot of work to go and research collaborations and partnerships to bring into the mix as well, to ensure that Indigenous people are front and centre in some of these industries.

You’ve said that there is a tremendous potential for carbon abatement through ILSC’s partnerships. What does that mean exactly, and what are the key activities that could drive it?

Well, if I can go back to a little bit of history again, when we were starting this and I guess when I say we I’m talking about myself and some senior Aboriginal people in West Arnhem where this really started – savanna burning, that is. So, we started with this idea that industry was interested in supporting Indigenous people to get back onto their country, to burn in a more appropriate traditional way. And by doing that you reduce the amount of greenhouse gases going into the atmosphere. Obviously, from an Indigenous point of view, it’s good for Country and it’s good for countrymen. It allays a lot of fears about these late season big fires that take place, particularly in northern and central Australia. And so, we started with this concept, what we thought at the time – it was in the mid 2000s – we thought was a bit kooky and quirky and so we did end up understanding that there was some rigorous science that could be applied to it that was basically vetting the fact that traditional knowledge and traditional science was legitimate. And what it did was put a Western legitimate lens over the knowledge that old people had been saying and telling us for a long period of time. So, that resonated with a lot of the communities in northern Australia. And so, there was the savanna burning born. I was part of the organisation that created the first methodology in the north and that just grew from there. And now we’ve heard enormous request from Indigenous people to use that plus some other forms of methodologies that are being created to do a couple of things. One is obviously to deal with the question of climate and sustainability, but how do people put that in a place where their cultural nuances and their ability to stay on their country, away from government intervention and other forms of wealth creation, and to be staying on their country in a more sustainable way?

The ILSC delivers the Savanna Fire Management Program. Tell me about how the cool burning used in that fire program differs from Western backburning practices that we see being used throughout most of the continent today?

Well, from my experience, cool burning and it’s not always just cool burning that Aboriginal people have applied, but for the discussion, cool burning has meant that there’s always burning. It’s not a one-off, you know, let’s just burn here this year and leave it next, because you end up with these situations where you’ve got, particularly in the tropical north, you’ve got a wet season that occurs every year, you’re always going to have vegetation and biomass that’s growing. How do we best manage that? And traditional knowledge tells us in practice that you need to be doing that actively every year. You need to be walking your country, you need to be on your country, you need to be using your knowledge. We’re using the indicator species, protecting your cultural sites, and you’ve got to do that year on and every year. And so, that means that you put more fire into the landscape, more patchy that’s responsive to particular vegetation types and places that are particularly significant and sensitive, such as cultural places, rock art sites, springs and jungles. And those sorts of things require good fire management around it. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have these rainforest patches in parts of northern Australia. So, by doing that and having this mosaic of fire regimes in the landscape, that effectively abates late dry season fires that basically burn everything and cook everything and makes it very difficult for animals and that to recover out of these hot fires as well.

Talk me through how fires in the early dry season prevent greater amounts of greenhouse gas being released. How does that work?

So, when we were doing the science of it and we were doing this with CSIRO and some international collaborators, we had to do a couple of things. One was to prove that the reduction in biomass – that was burnt later in the year versus that that was burnt early in the year – there was a difference in particularly methane and nitrous oxide, and methane being one of those bad gases. So, we had to prove that. That was proven by doing the research with CSIRO around the levels of methane that’s released later in the year versus early. So, that tells you that early dry season fire does release less methane and nitrous oxide. And so, that has proven again, that traditional knowledge and practice is a way in which you could reduce greenhouse gases going into the atmosphere. And when you took the baseline of these large fires, taking out thousands of square kilometres in northern Australia prior to the intervention of Indigenous people being reinstated back into their landscape, the amount of greenhouse gases going into the atmosphere was, you know, significant. At one point in time, it was the most significant contributor to greenhouse gases in the Northern Territory, more so than any of the gas plants that are being built there. So, to have Indigenous people reinstated back into the landscape meant that lower greenhouse gases were being emitted and that was something that could be sold into the market and afforded the ability for Indigenous people to enter into that new economy.

One of the partnerships of this program is with the Tiwi Island Rangers, and this was one of the first groups to receive funds from the Savanna Fire Management Program. Tell me what’s happened since they got that funding. What’s happened?

They’ve been able to meet targets to abate against a baseline that’s been agreed and supported by the government. So, they do that at year on. Again, it’s in the tropics, so you get a wet season. Things are going to grow after that, it dries off in the dry season. Rangers on the Tiwi Islands, like they are in many other places, are out and about and they’re putting in these early burns as the country dries out. Obviously when you get higher country that dries out first and then it goes down to the lowlands. And so, you need to keep an eye on the vegetation. And the Tiwi Island Rangers have done a tremendous job in meeting their targets every year, as many other groups have been doing so for a number of years now.

How have you seen these projects benefit the Indigenous landholders that are involved in the program?

Well, it’s meant that there’s a lower reliance on other external parties to fund the ability for these people to do their work on their country. And so, it’s meant that when we first started this, I think we were selling carbon at $9 or $10 a tonne and it’s now in the vicinity of $35 a tonne with, obviously, peaks last year up to $50 a tonne. So, we’ve seen that there’s an appetite in the market that there’s now a growing understanding of the importance of fire management and we’re also seeing that in the value of these carbon credits going up over time as well, so that meant people can generate more money in their fire work and use that money to subsidise some of their work, but also to do some of the important cultural work that they’re also required to do as Indigenous people in their country.

So, how much carbon is being abated by these projects?

I don’t have the exact figure off the top of my head, but there is a lot of abatement going on right across the country. And as I said earlier, there’s not just the menial credits from savanna burning, but there’s also these other methodologies, including sequestering carbon into trees and soil and those sorts of things that’s also being worked on. So, ensuring that the less emissions go into the atmosphere and more carbon is sequestered into the environment is something that I think Indigenous people around the country are starting to see is an economy for them to get involved in.

It’s something that has really obvious visual progress as well. You’d be going back to these areas and just seeing the difference. How does that feel?

It’s amazing. You know, when we were starting the concept of rangers in the mid ’90s, you know, at the time we were debating a couple of things. One was, was this a legitimate form? And will Westerners understand this, particularly the concept of having a ranger? Because obviously people would think that ranger, well, you’ve got to be at a national park. And so, we didn’t have rangers on Indigenous country until later on, when there was some recognition. So, to see it from a number of small groups, I remember going to the first ranger forum on the Blyth River in Arnhem Land, and I think there was about 70 people that attended that. And then it grew to the next year’s being 200 people, and it just grew from there and that was enormous interest. And now you see these ranger forums around the country, they attract hundreds of people and we’ve seen it spread right through from the north into central Australia, into southern Australia, you know, into Tasmania. Last week I was in La Perouse, here in Sydney, and they’ve got a ranger program. So, it’s just taken off and it tells you the importance that Indigenous people place on the management and development of their Country.

Now, I do know of huge interest here is the Nature Repair Market, and that’s a new initiative from the federal government that aims to reward landholders for restoring and protecting nature. Can you walk us through the Nature Repair Market and what it could mean for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities?

I think the terminology for the Nature Repair Market is one that’s probably a little bit confusing. And when we’re in the north, I mean we talked about this sort of notion of bio-cultural diversity. Whereas, you know, you talk about biodiversity as being the plants and animals. One of the fundamental problems that we’ve always found with that was that it was a separation between humanity and nature. Particularly Indigenous people around the world find that problematic – they don’t see themselves and we certainly don’t see ourselves as being separate to nature. So, the Nature Repair Market, I guess in some ways, is a form of trying to make that reconnection. At least I see it that way. And so, that’s a means of which I think is really important for Australia, given there’s been this historical disconnect between people. And we see that in southern Australia and the way that people manage fire, for example. So, the Nature Repair Market in my mind is an opportunity to assist with the reconnection of that, but also to provide some rigour around the development of a credit market for some of these biodiversity places and the ability for people to place value on other parts of their farms or their Country other than just relying on carbon credits from savanna burning, for example, that they could get these other potential credits. And so, it’s a new thing. It hasn’t bedded down yet in its entirety, but I think from an Indigenous point of view, it adds another string to the bow to articulate to the rest of the world that there’s more to people and nature than just meets the eye. And the Nature Repair Market I think is going to do something by way of helping to close that gap and understanding that people need to be part of their environment and not separate from it.

So, is this something just for people with like hundreds of thousands of acres, or is it for, you know, people with a normal quarter-acre block if you’ve got one of those?

Yes, I think a lot of things do work at scale but it doesn’t negate the need for those smaller landholders to also be able to generate some credits out of it as well. As I said, there’s still a lot of detail to be worked out and even though we’re seeing the emergence of the legislation, we still have to get some rigour around the actual industry and the market when it starts getting itself. But, from my experience, we’ve seen this occur in other parts of the world. There’s certainly been greater recognition, particularly for Indigenous people who, around the world, are the guardians of the planet’s very special places in biodiversity, freshwater resources and carbon stalls. That’s a very important point to make because, here in Australia, Indigenous people have been here for a long time and they’re not going anywhere. So, if we want to take, for example, humanity to be continuing to live here for another 65,000 years, then you know, we’ve got a bit of work to do. And I think the Nature Repair Market, if you’re a small landholder, will provide an opportunity for people to think about their contribution to not just managing biodiversity but their contribution to this question of climate change as well.

So, it’s an education tool as well, really isn’t it.

Absolutely, it’s an education. I think it’s a shifting of the paradigm from people thinking about land as being something that should be extracted to something that should be nurtured and looked after.

There’s a mind shift. And how will the ILSC be involved in that?

So, we have been involved in various discussions with the minister, with Minister Plibersek and other industry players such as the National Farmers’ Federation and obviously Indigenous groups that are keeping a close eye on this. Obviously, those groups that have been involved in the carbon market have also been contributing to the design of this as well. So, we will continue to support Indigenous groups to get engaged in this, and I’m sure, as it matures, we will see more and more interest from Indigenous groups wanting to be involved in the formal sense, that is in the commercial sense, of these new industries.

These conversations are a bit of a snapshot of the time that we’re in at present and looking to the future, right now, there is a lot of discussion about the Voice to Parliament. What is ILSC’s stance on the Voice? Does it have a stance?

So the ILSC as a government organisation does not have a stance in relation to the Voice, but I will say that I, as an individual in my previous life was involved in a lot of the discussions and the actual Uluru convention on that. So, I certainly appreciate the importance of it. One great example that we do have though is that the ILSC just completed a 12-month consultation around the country for its own strategy, and that is a means by which we have heard the voices of Indigenous people around the country tell us what sorts of things are important for them and how we should structure ourselves. And it really tells us the kinds of relationships that we should have with First Nations people. So, that in some ways resonates with the argument around the Voice that there needs to be a structural change in the relationship, but also one that’s respectful, one that’s driven by Indigenous interests and aspirations and their voices and works to meet their needs.

So, do you think the Voice, if it’s implemented could be a mechanism for you to help the work that you’re doing.

I think the Voice, you know, basically what we’ve heard, as I said, with the NILSS (National Indigenous Land and Sea Strategy) our national strategy process is that you can’t do things to people anymore. You’ve got to do it with them. And I think that’s what we would expect to come out of as citizens of Australia, to come out of the architecture of the Voice if it is successful in its referendum. Certainly, there needs to be more voices of people at a local level assisting in the design of policy and those sorts of things that affect them every day. So, we’ve heard that certainly within the ILSC and we’re, you know, I think a great case in point when it comes to that discussion about the need to listen to those voices.

So, we’ve spoken a lot in this series about the opportunities that transitioning to a net zero world could create. With all of your experience and your time discussing the needs of communities, how can we make sure that mob are benefiting from that transition as well?

Yes, I guess this is one of the challenges that the First Nations face is the pace in which things occur. And we’ve certainly heard that in our consultations in the last 12 months that people are still trying to catch up. You know, we’ve seen people still struggling to get their land back. And so, when people are preoccupied with those things, it’s very difficult for them to think about, you know, a post determination or a point in time where they have their land in their hands and they’re able to do things. So, people are doing a number of things at the same time. But it’s fundamentally important, I think, for the nation to consider that Indigenous people are at the heart of it, not only from the point of view of this long-standing connection, but in terms of its, I think, its integrity going forward on a global stage. Indigenous people and the nation’s relationship with Indigenous people, as we’ve heard again through our strategies, is going to be fundamentally important to have any level of legitimacy. And certainly, from my experience, when you talk about Australia as a country and you put it up against other countries around the world, the question of Indigenous involvement has always been there and how we talk about our identity. Those things, I think, are really always fuelled by this connection that Indigenous people have with this place.

From your experiences and from the discussions that you’ve had. What do you think is something that individuals can do to help combat climate change in this country?

I’ve long sort of talked about, you know, Indigenous people and their connection. And I think it’s not just Indigenous people and their connection to this country, I really think that settlers who have come after 1788 have also got a connection. And I think it’s really important for those people to feel some level of connectivity here in this country. But to do that, I think you really need to change the nature in which people think about this country. It’s not Britain. The landscape’s different, the environment’s different, the history is different. So, being respectful about those sorts of things, understanding that the old orthodox way of making money out of the land can’t continue, that there’s got to be new economies. And whether you’re in a suburban backyard and you’re planting plants, for example, that aren’t from there I think that’s a good point to start. People’s ownership of certain pets. I was asked a question recently about cats.

I was going to say.

You know, I don’t want to say anything ill about people who own cats, but cats do a lot of damage. And so, there’s those things and understanding what that means to the environment that you’re living in. We’ve certainly seen in the recent bushfires as well, that sort of disconnect between people and their environment really manifests in these events because people just see that there’s got to be a form of fire reduction, fire management that is, in my opinion, very different to how it should be done. I think we need to reconsider our relationship to nature and these new emerging markets as a way in which people can get a bit of focus around that. I don’t think it’s the only way, but obviously school education is another point and we’ve seen an uptick in the corporate sector of their social and cultural responsibilities. And, you know, after Juukan Gorge we’ve also heard about the corporate sort of world and how they do or don’t consider Indigenous heritage as well. So, there’s things that are getting done that aren’t quite right yet or not right. But there’s also good action to try and rectify some of these things.

So, do you have hope for the future?

I do have hope, actually. I think that from my experience, what I’ve seen – particularly with Indigenous people doing amazing things and I’ve always said that they don’t do it just for themselves, that they do it for everyone – that good management of the country benefits everyone, not just those people who are living and are owners of that country. So, I think those examples, as we’ve seen, savanna fire management is not just being done by Aboriginal people, it’s been picked up by pastoralists and other users in northern Australia now as a means of looking at these new economies away from the old economies and how does that contribute to a more sustainable future? So, these things are occurring I think we probably don’t hear enough about these good stories, but climate change affects everyone. It’s not just affecting Indigenous people, but it is something that I think all of us can learn from, certainly from the Indigenous experience and connectivity to the country here.

Thank you so much for your time today, Joe. It’s been fantastic talking to you. Please join me in thanking Joe. To follow the program online you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And visit the 100 Climate Conversations exhibition or join us for a live recording, go to 100climateconversations.com.

This is a significant new project for the museum and the records of these conversations will form a new climate change archive preserved for future generations in the Powerhouse collection of over 500,000 objects that tell the stories of our time. It is particularly important to First Nations peoples to preserve conversations like this, building on the oral histories and traditions of passing down our knowledges, sciences and innovations which we know allowed our Countries to thrive for tens of thousands of years.