Welcome, everyone, to 100 Climate Conversations. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, I’d like to begin by acknowledging the Traditional Custodians of the ancestral homelands upon which the Powerhouse museums are situated. We respect their Elders, ancestors and recognise their sovereignty was never ceded. To the Gadigal people whose land this talk is being recorded on, I acknowledge that the colonisation of this continent started here. I acknowledge your resistance and your resilience and that despite violent attempts, your cultures, land and your people are still here.

Today is number 64 of 100 conversations happening every Friday. Thank you to everyone tuning into the podcast every week and to our live audience for your support. We’re recording live today in the Boiler Hall of the Powerhouse museum. Before it was home to the museum, it was the Ultimo Power Station. Built in 1899 it supplied coal powered electricity to Sydney’s tram system into the 1960s. In the context of this architectural artefact, we shift our focus forward to the innovations of the net zero revolution.

My name is Rachael Hocking and I’m a Warlpiri woman from the Tanami Desert, from a community called Lajamanu in the Northern Territory. I’ve lived and worked on Gadigal land for the past eight to nine years and so I’m a visitor here and I feel really grateful every day to walk on this Country.

Time to hear about my deadly guest. Torres Webb is a proud far north Queensland and Indigenous man from Erub or Darnley Island in the Torres Strait. Torres has a long history of working with a range of educational institutions and communities to promote and showcase the depth of Indigenous scientific knowledge, ways of being, knowing and doing. He has significant experience developing science curriculum for all Australian educational sectors, utilising inquiry and strengths-based approaches to learning and teaching. He focuses on building teacher capability to authentically and respectfully embed Indigenous science knowledges in their practice. We are so honoured to have him here with us today. Please put your hands together for Torres.

You are from Erub Island, which is just such a beautiful thing to have learnt about you because it’s one of the islands I’ve actually visited in the Torres Strait. I thought that there’d be quite a few people here and listening though who probably have never been to Erub before. Can you tell us a little bit about your homeland?

Yes, it would be my pleasure. Erub, Darnley Island, as it’s also known is actually situated in the far eastern part of the Torres Strait. About 350 kilometres, nautical kilometres to the far east. It’s a beautiful volcanic island, really rich volcanic soil with beautiful surrounding reefs. It’s really at the top of the of the Great Barrier Reef. Pristine beautiful marine resources. And yes, such a lovely area and beautiful people.

Can you tell us a little bit about some of your favourite things about the island growing up? With fishing or playing on the volcanic rock? I want to hear a little bit about what childhood is like.

Yes. Oh well, I’d love to share some more. It was a beautiful childhood growing up in far north Queensland and also childhood up in the Torres Strait. A lot of our culture is based around horticulture, growing our own food resources, hunting and fishing in the fish traps that surround the island’s. Amazing ancient fish traps that have been designed with such in-depth scientific knowledge.

These are the rocks, aren’t they?

These are the volcanic rocks that are around that actually are in alignment with the different tides and phases of the moon to make your livelihood and sustainability a real ease to be able to catch that food, but to live in harmony with the natural environment and the flow of the seasons.

Incredible. How special to grow up with your culture so rich and respected. Like your knowledge was on display every single day in your home. That’s incredible.

Yes, it’s fantastic. And there’s that knowledge of living in harmony with our natural environment, but also the relationship not only with the different seasons, but with all of our family, kinship, networks that extend not only within our own home island, but in our neighbouring communities and also internationally with trade partnerships through to Papua New Guinea and all the way down to the mainland. The key point there has always been about the relationship to place, to people and kin and our wider network.

That’s incredible. And so, how does growing up in a place like Erub, how does that inform your relationship to Country growing up?

Well, there’s nothing that can really describe a connection, a connection to your own home soil and to your own place. It really instils a sense of stewardship and custodianship to understand and know that it’s been passed down and looked after from ancestors before to still here to this day. And that important role to make sure it’s still there for the future.

I want to talk a bit about your journey through education. You’ve said in the past that you developed a passion for science in particular and learning around about eight years old and that you defied teachers’ expectations to go to university. So, I wanted to break that down a little bit. What was your experience at school like and what were those teachers’ expectations of you?

Well, science and STEM, it’s everywhere and everything that we all do and have grown up, whether it be from the traditional horticultural practices to making hunting equipment, it’s all there. When I went to school, unfortunately the situation was that there wasn’t the same high expectations for some of our Indigenous students and through that learning, through various historical policies and practices that were there from my parents before, which weren’t allowed to go to school further.

It actually stirred a fire in my belly to say, ‘Look, I can achieve in these facets of learning and that I want to take this pathway forward.’ So, I continued on a journey in environmental science for my education, but that came from that passion of wanting to see how we can best look after and protect our natural environment. Because it’s really a key and core value for us, particularly for First Nations people, that connection. When we have a healthy country, we have healthy people. And that’s not only the physical, but the whole self.

I want to get to that a little bit more in a sec, just to talk about your upbringing surrounded by the sciences that your peoples have practiced, the first scientists, and then your experience of science in the classroom. But before that, I just wanted to know if you could break down a little bit more how you have seen those low expectations of our mob, of our children impact our lives and our confidence?

Yes, good question. What I think and have seen is that there wasn’t an opportunity for these science knowledges to be showcased and to be really fore fronted there that we’ve been the first scientists and continue to practice these science practices that are in harmony with the natural environment. I see that we can better utilise these opportunities and platforms in these education systems.

Start to push for that respect.

Respect, acknowledgement and two-way understanding.

So, what do you think changes then when teachers start to have a better understanding of the cultural backgrounds of their students, but also the land that schools sit upon? Indigenous land.

Yes. Well, we all know it takes a whole village to raise a child and actually grounding that education learning into a local community context that that people can relate to, that the students can relate to. They can see every day and they can see themselves in that curriculum and what’s important to them. And especially if we’re talking about climate, I think it’s really important that that’s integrated within all that learning. But there needs to be that relationship with the local community, the Elders and everyone else that are around.

I’m really curious, what did you learn or not learn about climate and climate crisis when you were in school?

Well, we knew that we couldn’t really see ourselves there within that curriculum and learning at school. There was nothing really, really showcased or really taught around that. But for myself, as I developed within my career and through stories that have been passed down, [I] knew that there was importance to how we can really have a voice around the changes that we see.

What are some of those sciences that you grew up around? You know, you talked a little bit about fish traps already. What are some of the other sciences that you were exposed to growing up on your own Country that you get really excited about?

Oh, there’s so many. One of them is also around our understanding of the astronomy and those changes of seasons. Understanding that we have one of our constellations is called Tagai and he holds the spear and also the fruits in the other hand. And those changes of when he moves throughout the sky then relate to our different practices on land. Especially because where I’m from, it’s a volcanic area so it’s related to our own sustainability in our own horticulture and growing our own foods.

And I’ve heard so much as well about that really tight relationship, very similar to in my own Country with our totems as well. You know, you have shark relationships that are so important and connected to your seasons as well.

Yes, indeed. There’s another constellation you reminded me called Beizam, and there’s the movement of what happens in the sky, there’s also a relationship and correlation on the earth and on the land and sea. But with things that are changing now we are starting to notice that there are some changes in the timing and the patterns of things that relate to that correlation between the stars and what’s happening on the land and sea.

Let’s talk a bit about that because you ended up doing some work as a ranger on Country. Can you tell us first about how you got into work as a ranger?

Yes, well, it started from that passion of wanting to best look after our natural environment and understanding that when we have a strong Country, a healthy Country, we’re going to have a healthy people. So, I went through and studied environmental science at uni and became working as a ranger. It was a great job. Connect to my own Country, looking after that and wanting to do that in a way that’s aligns to our own values and way of looking after Country.

Absolutely.

Before any range of programs came to the shore.

Incredible. So one of the first.

Yes, indeed. It’s makes me think about a story. A story related to – there was weed management. Scientists came to the island and said, ‘Okay, we’ve got these certain class five weed species. We’ll need to be managing these.’ And I’m like, ‘Oh, okay, yes, that’s interesting. Please come and show me what you’re talking about.’ ‘Oh, it’s this kudzu vine here.’ And ‘I know that traditional language we call that but actually that’s weskepu, one of our food resources. We don’t want to be spraying any chemicals to look after the landscape. We have our own ways.’ Cool burning to clear that landscape, replanting with various food resources.

It must have been so interesting to have these western scientists come in to use Latin words to talk about weeds, which you correctly identified as food sources for your people. What are those interactions like for you? What were those early interactions like for you having yarns with western science? Did it feel like a disconnect?

Yes, it really related to an understanding and a view of the landscape and the values, because from an Indigenous perspective we see it as a real whole holistic way. How does it relate to our health? How does it relate to the learning and growing up of our children? How does it relate to so many aspects rather than just seeing things in a silo. Okay, that’s the science for that aspect. But how does it relate to all aspects of our life?

It’s an ecosystem and we’re part of it too, as humans, as the Indigenous first peoples.

100 per cent.

Yes. I want to go back to what you mentioned before about the changes you’ve started to notice across your lifetime. Was there a moment, particularly when you were doing work as a Ranger? Where Country started to look different to you, to what it had when you were younger?

There were actually a few things that I noticed, and especially with regards to the water quality and some of the erosion that’s happening around the islands, the shifting of the sands and how the beaches have shrunk smaller and we’re an oral culture. And so, listening to the stories from my ancestors before and knowing that how that’s changed, there’s certainly been a lot of impacts to the area. We contributed some of the least to climate, but unfortunately are impacted by the worst and the most, which is really, you know, we’re on the front line and it’s not something that’s into the future, but it’s something that’s happening right now. It’s real. You don’t need a scientist to come and tell me that this is happening. We can see it already for ourselves.

And it’s such an important point to hammer home. You know, like you said, First Nations people mostly who are living in small communities for the most part, do have such a low footprint when it comes to the climate. Yet we are the first ones experiencing the devastating impacts. So, how have you seen the shifts in the climate on your Country affect cultural practices?

With the shifts now that are happening on our Country, there’s so many things that we’re noticing that’s impacting on some of our natural and native foods and fruits that used to be fruiting so much more. We don’t see some of those trees growing anymore along the beaches. Some of the rising sea levels are also impacting some of our sacred sites that are really – that we hold dear and important to us. So, many impacts that we’re seeing even related to some of the fishing grounds.

So, how important is it for the western science community to understand not just the loss of the environment, but the impact on culture as well?

Yes, for Indigenous people and for my people, we are – it’s connected. It’s one. It’s more than just the – what makes me think of another story, too, is when a child is born, we save the placenta and bury that placenta and then a tree is planted on top of that. It instils a sense of connection, instils a sense of responsibility, and instils a sense of a future. The thought of the future in how that tree holds the soil. That tree provides fruit and food for us, but also that tree is like an ancestor.

It’s a cycle. I want to speak about ancestors actually, because it is such an important part of your story. You’ve talked about Mabo Day and the impact of what Koiki did in the 90s. You were a child at the time when you heard about it. What do you remember from that time?

It really struck a chord with me at that time, just as a as a young child and still at school about the importance of having a strong voice and advocating and being heard as First Nations people. And it really actually sparked a real flame within me to continue that journey and be an advocate for my peoples.

You must have a lot of pride.

Yes.

And your people have, you know, Torres Strait Islander mob have been on the front lines time and time again, you know, from the 30s you’ve had many strikes. And even today, you have multiple groups and families taking cases to United Nations, trying to hold the Australian Government to account for the rising sea levels on your Country. Can you tell me a bit about that history of protest with your peoples?

Yes. Thank you for acknowledging that. And what I really want to hammer home with that point is that sense of resilience, that strength of resilience to keep going in the face of adversity. And to never give up and finding a way and finding a solution to how we move forward together is really something that’s close to me. And it’s true, forming some of those other those relationships, it makes me think of some of our other traditional practices where we are trading and various trading routes that they were about building relational networks with others, because we know we can’t just survive on our own, but it’s how we do that together with other people. I think that’s really important. So, this climate, it’s – we’re all in this together. So, it’s one thing that’s happening here can really affect other people in a remote part where I’m from.

How do you see your people standing up right now like there are quite a few different groups of people who are taking direct action because of how isolated and forgotten a lot of the time the Torres Strait has been by governments, consecutive governments. Do you see there’s a fire in everyone else’s belly the way that you started to develop yours when you learnt about what was happening with Mabo?

There certainly is. I think that the more that we’re – well we spoke about education a little bit earlier, more about how we frame some of these learnings to inspire our next generation is really important. And there certainly is – there’s things that can happen at these larger levels at a political scale. But also what I’m noticing with my community is they’re getting on and doing what they can in their own ways and in everyday life.

What sort of things are happening at a local level?

Oh, there’s a lot of their own planting there on their own islands. They’re also looking at different changes within the use of simple everyday things; upcycling and re-utilising things that are there and around their own communities.

I’ve seen some beautiful, recycled fishnets as well up your way.

Yes, the fishnets. So, many things that people can then do in their own little ways.

Yes. While also just respecting that Country all the time. So, in terms of what we’ve just yarned about there and you pointed this out so many times, there is a real obvious link between the well-being of Country and the wellbeing of us as people. So, I wanted you to kind of expand on this, this idea of our social and emotional wellbeing as First Nations peoples and the wellbeing of Country being tied into that.

Yes, good question, because what I noticed and we see out there, that there’s a rise in some of the depression and all of these types of things. There’s a real correlation for us mob, particularly First Nations people because of that connection to our Country. I spoke about how we – that that tree they’re representing, it’s one of our ancestors there that was buried and that was part of their placenta and growing up, that connection to the land and to all of the natural environment around us. You know, when our Country is sick, we feel sick. We can’t access the same food, natural food sources that we have always being able to utilise. So, there’s a real connection and a cycle between that, between a strong people and a strong, healthy Country.

Totally. Because it’s, you know, you can see the impact like you – our peoples pre-colonisation and in many parts today is still extremely healthy. Living off that land only taking what we needed and giving back. Extremely healthy physically, but also mentally strong. And I think a lot of the time it’s really lost on the mainstream community how when you value our knowledges as equal, as the first knowledges of this land, the change that happens on our psyche, on our mental health because we feel valued.

Yes.

Do you see that in students coming through now with changes to the curriculum?

Definitely. I was sharing a bit before with some other people earlier on today, some of the ways of utilising a traditional Indigenous context to teach some of the scientific concepts, which was fantastic because you get to see yourself there within that curriculum and really feel strong about that not only improved test scores but utilising that as a way to bridge and build reconciliation with all. When you see this deeper scientific and sophistication to First Nations peoples.

The kind of learning that you were looking for when you were going through school and didn’t feel that value. So, what are the changes that are happening right now in the curriculum and what else needs to happen?

Torres Webb I think at the moment we’re strengthening those opportunities for our knowledge to be within, centred in the curriculum, which is great. But where to next is about it takes that whole community to educate the children. So, how do we get to include and bring in Elders within the community, rangers within the community and everyone to be involved and be a part of it? Because each region is a little different. Saltwater people, freshwater, desert.

It’s so important – it’s obvious to us, right? Like when we were yarning before, I’m like, ‘I’m desert, you’re saltwater.’ Straight away that’s how we relate to one another. We know where we’re from and we try and find commonalities, but also respect our differences. Are you seeing a greater appreciation for that diversity, even just amongst the islands and the mainland as well?

Yes, I think we are. Yes. Slowly, slowly that’s being appreciated. And for having great opportunities like this and platforms like the Powerhouse museum to provide that I think is fantastic. And people are being more open to wanting to learn and hear and listen to our stories.

So, if there was one thing that you’re currently involved in with the curriculum that you wish you got to learn in school, what would it be? Is there a calendar that you wish was presented differently when you were a young person, the teachings about Beizam shark totems?

Yes.

What would you have wished you learnt?

Yes, well, thank you for bringing that up. There’s the seasonal calendars that are out there which are really fantastic. Really, really good. When I think about that too, there’s a role for people within our community, the Elders and Uncles, to be able to pass on that knowledge to the next generation. But yeah, definitely, I think for my interest would be around the, the natural environment.

So, are some of the schools that you’re seeing at the moment actually bringing in Elders and traditional knowledge holders to speak to students outside of your formal teaching?

Yes, that local connection is really, really important. It’s about understanding in your local area what’s happening and building that relationship up there, because there’s a lot of knowledge that our Elders hold just to provide an opportunity and they want to be able to share that.

Seeing it in schools down in New South Wales as well. You know, this starting to shift to this focus of rather than this pan Aboriginality or First Nations peoples, yes, we have so much in common, but focusing on that Country that the school is situated on and starting there. If you can say the language word for where you are, we can say we’re Gadigal right now. And we need to know that because we need to know what the protocol is for walking on this place. The students then will find it a lot easier to relate to First Nations peoples globally across this entire continent. If you start local and introduce them to concepts about the plants that are growing on the school grounds, you know, it makes a lot of sense.

Oh yes, definitely.

And just reflecting on how climate change wasn’t taught really at all when you were a young person, yourself, what reaction do you see in the young people of today when they start learning about the climate? Are they feeling empowered? Are they feeling scared? Like what is their reaction to learning about climate shifts, especially from a First Nations perspective?

Yes, they’re seeing that – they know, they’re seeing that it’s real, you know, through our conversations and the stories and our songs and dances that tell of our natural environment. They know it’s real. They feel it. They see it when they’re going down to the beach side and knowing of these different areas where the gravesites are being washed away. They’re feeling that sense of urgency, that it’s important now. And I think more and more with our new – the teachers that are up and coming through to see that it’s really important how they link that in with that learning. And there is a real fire burning within that next generation, definitely.

So, tell me about your strengths-based approach to all the work that you do and why it’s so important to have the strengths-based approach when we talk about First Nations knowledges and climate and science.

Yes, for too long there’s been that deficit mindset and also the thinking that all of our knowledges are archaic and only in the past, but they’re woven into every day. And I was just – even the re-utilising of the materials that are around. We make the baskets out of some of the traditional materials, but now utilising some of the plastic strapping that’s there and upcycling. Just taking that strengths-based [approach] to what’s around me, actually how we look at some of the resources that some people think that they’re a waste, but how you can actually re-utilise that and still bring in some of those traditional practices into the modern day.

I’ve seen in a lot of artwork from your way as well, you know. Really bringing in this idea that yes, we hang on to our traditional practices but we are evolving as well. You know, we are making do with technology, you know, to enhance our sciences, not just western sciences. How are you seeing technology allow your work to grow and for First Nations knowledges in particular to utilise technology of today?

When I was talking a bit about art with education so many different fields, it’s the way that we learn, that we share our stories. It’s through our dances, through our art, through our stories, games and songs, with the digital technologies now being also working on a few projects and supporting them, building the capacity of local communities, utilising those iPads and drones to really tell our story and to create some digital art, to really tell the rest of the world of actually what’s happening. So, we’re still continuing those practices in the new forms, which is great because we’re people who don’t only want to stimulate the mind, but the heart also. And art is a great way to do that.

It’s so true. And drones are incredible, right? Because on my country where we have the dot painting tradition started in Western Desert and around my community, that was our Old People looking at our Country from a bird’s eye perspective.

Yes.

And then they got drones out and they were like, ‘Oh my God, I can see it like from a bird’s eye literally now.’ And it’s insane how accurate our Old People were before they even had that camera in the sky. It was a map. It was a map. And, incredible.

It is.

They got to trust us a bit more hey.

Oh, you’re not wrong.

So, I mean, you’ve got so much coming up, but can you think of a couple of things that you’re most excited for right now in the future?

Yes, I’m really excited as more of these opportunities to really forefront and really value Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders knowledges and how we can shape the future together working. I’m just looking up over there and seeing a few of my other colleagues on the screen and how we work together. It’s really about coming together as one and really respecting one another because we’re all here and we all want to see the best for our future and future generations.

I’m really glad that you pointed that out because I’ve interviewed a couple of your colleagues in the First Nations science space, and you all have a such a unique approach to talking about these things with so much integrity and so much culture. How important is that peer group of First Nations scientists who are all coming at it with similar values and goals?

Yes, it’s so important having the leadership and in various places within institutions, within from a grassroots community. We’re all experiencing seeing similar situations, but when we come together as one, it really strengthens, strengthens us and our own well-being.

So, last question for you just around what do you hope for the future of First Nations sciences and knowledges? And what do you hope for the future of your Country?

Yes, wow, really, I hope for the future to see that really recognised – our science knowledges really recognised and acknowledged everywhere throughout. To have leadership of our mob in all of those levels and voices that are heard. What I hope to see for my Country and community is for us to really feeling that we can grow up happy and healthy and connected to our place. And being able to share our wonderful region with others and to everyone to come along on that journey where we feeling prosperous and in our own ways that respects our community, our people, and all of those resources that are there around us.

Incredible. Thank you, Torres, can everyone please give a big round of applause.

Thank you Rachael. Appreciate it.

To follow the program online you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And visit the 100 Climate Conversations exhibition or join us for a live recording, go to 100climateconversations.com.

This is a significant new project for the museum and the records of these conversations will form a new climate change archive preserved for future generations in the Powerhouse collection of over 500,000 objects that tell the stories of our time. It is particularly important to First Nations peoples to preserve conversations like this, building on the oral histories and traditions of passing down our knowledges, sciences and innovations which we know allowed our Countries to thrive for tens of thousands of years.