Welcome, everyone to 100 Climate Conversations and thank you for joining us. I’d like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the ancestral homelands on which we meet today, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We respect their Elders, past, present and future, and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Today is number 91 of 100 conversations happening every Friday. The series presents 100 visionary Australians that are taking positive action to respond to the most critical issue of our time, which is climate change. We are recording live today in the Boiler House of the Powerhouse museum. Before it was home to the museum, it was the Ultimo Power Station. Built in 1899, it supplied coal-powered electricity to Sydney’s tram system into the 1960s. In the context of this architectural artefact, we shift our focus forward to the innovations of the net zero revolution. My name is Paddy Manning. I’m a journalist and author of half a dozen books, including a book on climate change, Body Count: How Climate Change Is Killing Us. And now if I can introduce Dr Zhengrong Shi, a pioneering energy scientist and entrepreneur. In 2000, Shi founded Suntech Power, a groundbreaking solar panel manufacturer, and has since founded Sunman Energy, helping to deliver the future of solar. As an academic, Dr Shi has published more than 100 papers and is the owner of 80 patents. Dr Shi’s work in photovoltaic technology has transformed the solar industry and accelerated the global transition to cleaner energy sources. We are so thrilled to have him join us today. Please join me in welcoming Zhengrong. Zhengrong, you were born in 1963 on Yangzhong, an Island in the Yangtze River, not far from Shanghai. You grew up through China’s Cultural Revolution. You excelled at school and were enrolled to study science at Changchun University in Northeast China in 1979; graduated in 1983 and completed a Masters in laser physics at the Shanghai Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics in 1986. Can you tell us about your upbringing and what drove your interest in science?

In my time, it’s really, because I was born in 1963, as you said. And at that time, you know, China actually went through a very difficult time. You know, like there was three years [of] natural disasters. There was no food. People really struggled to survive. So, I was lucky, I survived. And also, we went to school and, as you know, there was a Cultural Revolution. The university enrolment really resumed from 1977. So, before that, people like me couldn’t go to university. So, again it’s very lucky, you know, for me to actually get into university in 1979, only three years after the reopening of the university door to young people like us. So, of course, I was always very fascinated with chemistry and physics. So, I was very lucky. I got to study in the university to learn optics, optics about light. Without light, we cannot see the world. And that’s how I started my career in a science and engineering background.

Okay, that’s interesting. Can I ask, were you talking and thinking about clean energy and about carbon pollution reduction at that time in China?

Actually, the first time when I heard greenhouse gas, in fact, was in 1983 when I was starting my Masters degree in the university, and we had an English teacher from America. So, at the time, you know, Douglas – the guy’s name was Douglas – he started to talk about greenhouse gas effect and the global warming. So, at the time, we don’t talk about climate change. We talk about global warming due to greenhouse gas effect.

You headed to Australia in 1988. I think you said in one interview that you couldn’t have found Australia on a map if you were asked. But you are soon studying for a PhD at the world-renowned School of Photovoltaic and Renewable Energy Engineering at the University of New South Wales. Your mentor and PhD supervisor at New South Wales Uni was Professor Martin Green. His research group has developed technology that’s featured in over 90% of the world’s solar voltaics. Martin has recalled your work with him all started when you knocked on his door. He said that the global price drop in solar would not have happened without you. How did you come together? Did you know about Dr Green before you accepted the invite from New South Wales Uni?

Yeah. When I applied for admission in the University in New South Wales, I didn’t know there was a photovoltaic research program in the university. So, I actually applied for work in School of Physics with Professor Michael Gal, and they used laser physics to characterise this interaction of laser and of materials. And then my sponsorship – I only got a one-year sponsorship to work with Professor Michael Gal and, of course, I wanted to continue my study here and doing my research, but there was no scholarship and no funding to continue my work here, and I had to worry about either go back to China or find the new sponsorship here, right, to continue my work. So, people around me told me: Oh, you should talk to Professor Martin Green, you know, from the school – he lecture in engineering. He’s a very rich group, got a lot of research fund from America, from federal government. So, that’s why I went to see Martin. You know, that was, I think, a Tuesday afternoon around 5pm. I knocked on his door and he showed up. Tall and handsome professor, as you can imagine. And I just asked him: Can I get a job here? Martin’s initial answer was: Oh, sorry, we don’t have a job. And I didn’t give up. I continued on. Actually, I don’t want a full-time job. I just want some research opportunities and so on. So, then he invited me into his office: Please come in. So, second day he gave me an offer to work in his group as a research assistant. That moment, that knocking on the door, is the moment for me to enter the photovoltaic area.

What were you hoping to achieve in photovoltaics? What was your research aimed at doing?

When I joined Professor Martin Green’s group, that was 1989. So, Martin’s group was already very famous, making very high efficiency, crystalline silicon solar cells. But at the same time, the whole research community also realised making solar cells at the time is so expensive and that if we cannot get the cost down enough, then it still is the dream, right? Solar is good. We’ve got enough sunshine which can generate electricity, but not sharp enough. So, the reason for that, because this silicon wafer – crystalline silicon wafer – the same material we use to make chips like a semiconductor microelectronics, the same materials is very, very expensive. So, there are many ways of reducing this cost. And Professor Green really believed crystalline silicon is the answer. So, if we can, instead of using other materials, if we focus on crystalline silicon material, but make it thinner. So, then he applied for several million dollars, some funding from Australia and some even from the US to actually try to make this thin crystalline silicon film on glass. So, that was the concept. At that moment I knocked on his door and I joined the laboratory, started my PhD work, you know. So, I just tried to grow crystalline silicon slim film on glass. That was my PhD work. And it took me two-and-a-half years to complete my work. And I was very happy because I worked so hard day and night, seven days because I had to pay a very high tuition fee of $15,000 a year. So, I think I better get it done quickly. So, that’s how I did it in two-and-a-half years. And also, I was very lucky and I use the way, you know, probably a lot of people never thought about it to grow this crystalline silicon on glass. I remember – because the way you grow crystal on glass that’s at the high temperature, like a temperature over 600°C. We really only can imagine how this crystal forms and grows, right? We cannot see it. So, I have to try to understand how this process happened. So, what I did, I used salt.

Salt?

Yeah, salt.

Ordinary salt?

Yeah. I remember one weekend I just went to a supermarket to get a bag of salt and a piece of glass. I boiled it with water. Once it was supersaturated, I inserted a piece of glass in the solution on the microscope. I actually could see how crystals were grown. Okay, so that’s –

In boiling water?

In boiling water. So that’s the how I did it –

And what did the occupational health and safety people have to say about it?

Well, salt is okay, right? And it was the weekend – nobody knows a lot of what I did.

And did that result in one of your 90 patents?

Yeah. I think I find about 20 patents, when I –

Out of that?

Yes.

What was exciting then about that thin-film solar? How did it change the game for solar cells?

Yes, as I said earlier, the idea was to reduce the usage of crystal of silicon. For a piece of wafer, the thickness at the time was around 0.4 mm-thick. For slim film, our intention was to produce like ten microns-thick. You can imagine, you know, 0.4: 10 microns is like 400 times thinner. So, that’s how we tried to reduce the cost. And later on, I think in 1995, Martin and Stuart Wenham were able to get the $45 million funding from Pacific Power. So, then we started a company called Pacific Solar and tried to commercialise this technology with the goal of making solar panel with a cost of less than $1 per watt. So, that was in 1995. So, I was very lucky. And, you know, Martin appointed me as a sort of chief technical officer. So, I was like only 30 years old, very young, and managing a group, a PhD of 50 people, coming all around the world.

Let’s keep that $1 per watt as a point of reference. That was your ambition in 1995?

Yes.

What was the current prevailing cost of solar at that time?

That was US$5 per watt.

US$5. And you were aiming for $1 and it’s now 20 cents?

Yes.

Okay. So, you get persuaded in 2000 – you’re an Australian citizen –, you’re persuaded by the city of Wuxi in China to set up solar manufacturing there. Within five years – and actually, Martin Green told us that he was very sceptical that you would succeed in your dream of manufacturing solar cells in China, but you persevered. Within five years, the company you founded, Suntech, was listed on the New York Stock Exchange, the first privately owned Chinese company to do that. And you were at one point China’s richest man, known around the world as the first green billionaire. How did that take off? Can you just talk us through that incredible experience?

Definitely. That was a very risky choice at the time.

To go to China?

Yes. But, maybe in my blood, I have kind of a personality, you know – [to] continue a tranquil life won’t excited me that much. Okay, so I love challenges. So, at the time there was some friend [who] talked to me: Hey, you know so much about solar. Why don’t you come to China, to start some business. Actually I didn’t believe it myself. Come on. There was no capital, right? You know there is nothing there.

There was no solar manufacturing, at all?

There was some sort of manufacturing, but all together, like there were four solar manufacturers and each was like a 500-kilowatt capacity. There was no market or especially for this – manufacturers mainly focused on domestic market, okay. But for me, I know there was market in Germany at the time and also Japan. And I didn’t think about, you know, really doing business very seriously. But when people talk to me a couple of times, then I started (a little bit educated, you know): So, well, maybe I should think about it, right. And I spent a week to write a 200-page business plan myself. I didn’t know the format. Okay, I have to search for it. I have to, you know, go to [my] computer to find out what is the template of a business plan, you know. So, chapter one, two, three. And then there was a section: financial analysis. Okay, that’s when you need to give an estimation about cost of solar panel, right. I didn’t have a clue. You know, the price of wafer or price of acid chemicals. But I know the price of materials that are bought in the laboratory. But that’s a small quantity. And I gave the 30% discount. That’s the number I used to try to calculate the final cost of a solar module I’m going to make. I remember in the business plan, if I can sell solar module at the $3 per watt, back in 2001, I can make 25% gross margin. So that was a number really came from my head, okay. There’s no substance to support it except the number from labatory. You know what? When I started to sell the module from 2003 and 2004, the price was $3 per watt and at $2.8 per watt. The gross margin was 25%.

You got the numbers right.

So that’s exactly right. Okay. But anyhow, I think it was difficult to start business in China at the time. Usually for somebody to start a business you need a few elements. For example, you need a market, you need a capital, you need a technology, you need a talent. And I’ve got nothing. And it took me a year to raise $6 million, really supported by Wuxi government. So that’s how I started. But I spent it all for the first production line and only ten megawatts. I bought equipment from Germany, from Japan, US. Also I spent $1 million to establish the research laboratory, which is very important. At the time, that laboratory was probably the best in China. Then it took me one-and-a-half years to actually build the factory. And the speed is really Suntech speed. So afterwards, you know, I promised the board: We’re going to make efficiency, get efficiency over 15% of multi-crystalline silicon solar cell. I achieved it within three months after the factory was operational.

The cells you are making in Suntech were using the technology developed in a New South Wales university. So, you’re achieving 15% in manufacturing line in China. What was the theoretical efficiency of the cells at that time?

Theoretical efficiency of crystalline silicon is like 29.4%. At the time, the University of New South Wales – you know, Martin’s group already achieved 25%. So, this is like – what we achieved, 15%, is commercial, largest-scale production. So that’s already like leading efficiency in commercial.

Best in the world at that time?

Yes.

What did that plant, that Suntech manufacturing plant – how did it change the solar industry?

That actually, you know, played a very critical role at the time. Due to the success of Suntech especially, [in] 2005 we went public in the New York Stock Exchange. Share price went up the first day 41%. Then, as you said, I became billionaire, you know, the richest man in China. But it’s very interesting what society – people, they focus on your fortune story and many people say: Oh, look at this guy. You know, overnight he became a billionaire, right. But people didn’t really think it took me 15 years to get here, right? Save all the deposit. All the hard work. But anyhow, what I did has a huge social impact on many ambitious businesspeople, entrepreneurs. So, at the time, you know, in China, because business is booming, people are all working very hard and excited and always zoom and looking for new opportunities. And all of a sudden, this guy, young student from Australia, he’d become billionaire like in five years. What’s he doing? We’d better take a look. So, [there] actually arose a group of people entering the industry.

Copying you.

Yeah. You can say copy. Or I think at the time, because there was no supply chain, everything has to be imported: equipment, material. Nothing in China. So, I remember for glass, solar glass, I had to talk to Pilkington in Waterloo – next to Redfern, there’s a factory here. So actually, I signed a five-year contract with them because –

To get glass from Sydney.

Yes, glass is from Sydney. You know, Pilkington in Waterloo was the only solar glass manufacturer globally. So, we didn’t have glass supply. I came here to talk to them. And many others, like wafers and like silver paste – everything is from overseas. So, at the time I started to try to help to build up the local supplies, because I have limited capital, I have limited time, but I have the experience, I have the network. So, I tried to convince many people, I think from 2001 to 2006, every year I organise a [one-] week seminar talking about solar.

In China.

In China, near Wuxi. Whoever was interested in solar [could] come over because I gave lectures myself. And also, I invited some other engineers like Stuart Wenham. You know, he got involved very early like in 2003. He was a professor. He was very good at teaching you know.

Stuart Wenham worked with Martin Green, yeah? At New South Wales Uni.

Yes, at the time. So, later on in 2005 he became the CTO of Suntech. And because my, you know –

Chief Technology Officer.

Yes. Because of my encouragement and many business people that came, I did it continually for five years and many of them become billionaires now. They own big companies, public companies. Bing Lee and Amanda, you know.

They are all big solar manufacturers now.

All big solar manufacturers. So, they’re public companies, you know, so with a market cap [of] probably over $20 billion or more. So, I did that. And also after Suntech went public, there were another ten Chinese companies went to Wall Street, raised hundreds of millions of dollars. And this is the foundation. So, supply chain is so important. And you can imagine when I started, there was nothing in China. But now in Wuxi, everything was within two hours’ drive.

It’s still there.

That would deliver.

All right. So now we talk about the painful bit. What went wrong? Why did Suntech go broke?

So at the time, because there was a high expectation from all around you, right?

You’re the leader.

Yes, including myself. And we support this ecosystem establishment, you know, in a great way, not just like technically, but also financially. And at the same time, the investors also expect us to grow fast. So, for example, in 2009 we already reached two gigawatt in the solar cell capacity module production. And we also devoted a huge effort in developing the new technology. For example, Pluto technology. We installed one megawatt Pluto modules on the Sydney Theatre Company roof.

Oh yeah with Cate Blanchett. Yes, I’ve seen those photos.

Yeah. So actually, I personally delivered the panels to the house. So, all this technology was developed together with the University of New South Wales. And we use copper instead of silver and the efficiency went up to like 22% at the time. And that’s also the precursor of PERC technology, which now is commercially available.

What does that stand for again?

PERC is a passivated emitter.

Passivated emitter?

Yeah, passivated emitter and a real contact solar cell. Which was invented in like early 1990s by Professor Martin Green. He won many awards for that. But Suntech at the time, like in 2007, we started to develop this technology, not only the technology, the process itself, but also the tools okay, equipment, because now people use the laser process to make PERC work. But the company who supply 80% of the industry was a company we helped, we supported back in 2007. So, that sort of tells you how important was the work we did. But unfortunately, the copper-plating which we started and commercialised, the technology got lost after me. So, now the industry, you know, had to redevelop this copper-plating process because silver is getting more and more expensive. Silver is a rare metal anyway, so copper will be much cheaper, more wealthy than silver in supply.

And is that related to the collapse of Suntech?

Yes, it is. Because Suntech was bought by another owner, right. And the new owner was not technically minded as much as I, you know. So, I don’t know. I even ask the question: Where all his tools? Two gigawatt of tools, copper plating tools. If somebody you know, bought one or two, right? So at least the industry does not need to start from scratch.

Oh, because the picture I had was you had anti-dumping actions in America and –

That definitely didn’t help.

And the financial crisis.

That didn’t help at all.

No. So, you’ve got all of these factors coming together.

Yeah. So, when you are lucky, everything comes for you. When you are unlucky, everything comes against you. That’s the life risk. For me I’m kind of a person – mostly I look forward. I don’t see my success or glory time in the back so much.

So six months after Suntech goes bankrupt, you set up Sunman. Was it a totally different technology that you are promoting with Sunman? Or, what was the vision behind Sunman?

At the time, you know, I mean, there were so many opportunities. You know, many people ask me: Oh, you can start another Suntech, right? With your network and experience you can grow a company to like billions of sales again. But I didn’t want to do it because I’ll repeat what I did. And yeah, I thought about it and what’s next for solar. And I remember 2010, I attended energy summit in Germany. I was on a stage with the chairman of Shell. You know, the energy company Shell. And we debated about the future of energy. She’s talking about conventional oil, coal, gas. I’m talking about renewables, right. And eventually, you know, the chairman of Shell asked me two questions: Hey, Dr Shi, you believe you can rely on solar? Solar can provide all the energy we need, and you have to answer me two questions. In Europe, unlike China or America, we don’t have a big piece of vacant land or desert. So, we only have buildings in a very crowded, high density of population. How can we install solar? Okay, on all surfaces, building surfaces, on the walls and so on. That’s one question. Second question: Do you think you can supply enough? At the time, I was amazed at these awkward questions, right. And can we supply enough? Today we realised we cannot supply enough solar. So, I think you know something actually came from the first question: How can we install solar on all surfaces? And imagine with a bulky glass so heavy, right, with like this window, like a high-rise building window. You know, put this piece of glass on all surfaces is not easy. Not an easy job. So that’s why I have been thinking: Is there another alternative? So, I thought about it: Okay, can we get like a thin film-like product?

Back to your research.

Exactly. So that’s very light, right?

And I’ve got one right here. So, just for the microphones, I’m holding a flexible Sunman panel. It’s about a foot square and it’s bendable.

Yes, it’s bendable.

And it’s very lightweight. Can you explain what is the innovation?

So normally for conventional panels or like solar panels, my first company Suntech, you know, is still making, actually. The encapsulation material on the front is a piece of glass made by a company like Pilkington. But with that as a panel it is very heavy. And especially now the panel gets bigger and bigger. A two-square-metre panel will weigh about 25 to 30 kg. So, fairly heavy. So, when you carry this 30-kilogram panel to your rooftop or to mount on the facade is not an easy job. Also, installation costs would be very high. But to cover all surfaces with solar panel, we have to use some other products. So that’s a whole – you know, the invention came from and the invention basically cannot make a thin film like a solar panel, but without using other materials. I still want to use silicon, which is already a proven technology, proven product, and with like high efficiency and low cost and reliable. All we need to do is replace glass with some polymer material, such as a polymer material we use in aircraft. Again, people sometimes worry about the durability and stability of polymer composite, but if we imagine the airplane would fly for like 20–30 years in such a harsh environment. Okay, so polymer composite materials are very durable and are stable.

But not translucent normally.

That’s the challenge, but we need to find that composition which would provide the transparency, insulation, okay, and also like a similar expansion coefficient match with silicon and so on. But is doable based on that.

In fact, you’ve done it.

Yes, we started from early – the company was incorporated in like October 2014, but we actually started the research work from January 2015. It took us like almost three years for materials, product development, certification. That’s why the first time I remember probably is the end of 2017. We actually launched the first product in Botanic Garden in Sydney.

Okay, I’ll go and have a look. I didn’t know that. And you’ve patented that? You call it the eArc panel.

eArc means enable architecture.

Enable architecture, okay. That’s what it stands for.

Yes.

How do they compare in efficiency to glass panels?

Same efficiency.

Same.

Yes. Because we use the same solar cell technology.

They can be used off-grid. I’ve seen one video where you’re talking about enlarging the pie or enlarging the cake. You don’t want a cut of the cake for solar, you want to enlarge the cake. Grow the pie.

Yeah, grow the pie because we do not compete with the conventional glass panels. We, for example, at the moment many people want to install solar, including [the] Australian National Maritime Museum. They wanted to install solar panel like back in 2015. But because of roof issues, they cannot handle the weight. They don’t want any penetration or routine installation. So, for us we just mount it on the surface.

Glue it? So, you don’t have to drill into the roof. There’s no leaking.

No, no, no. So, especially, you know, many roofs always are like a waterproof membrane. You know, they don’t want any drilling. And also 40% of the commercial and industrial rooftop, they’ve got a weight issue. The structure cannot handle the weight. For our panel, it only weighs like three kilogram per square metre. Glass panels weighs 15 kg per square metre. So, you can tell the difference. But again, innovation is not easy. We launched the product in 2017. It took us like another five years to really educate and grow the market. So, now cumulatively we already installed over 500 megawatt of this solar panel globally.

And if you take the glass out, does that help you answer the challenge from the chairman of Shell. Can you supply the quantity?

Yes, you can imagine it’s very easy. Just brush, some glue, you can stick on the wall. As simple as that.

There’s a train running on these cells now. Can you tell us about that? The world’s first solar train.

Yeah. Byron Bay. In Byron Bay and, of course, it is a historic a train, you know, for tourists, for education. So, what we, you know, decided to work together to use solar. We stick this solar panel on the roof of train to partially power the train. So, very good education purpose.

What other uses could these cells have that, for example, I think I’ve seen you in some interviews, talk about integrating them with roofing materials or –

You can integrate this with Colorbond –

With the curves? On the corrugations?

Yes. And you can integrate this with this thermal panel.

Are you talking to BlueScope about that?

We have been working together for a while, yes.

A solar –

Colorbond

Corro.

Yes.

Right. Cool. These cells, where are they made? Is it again in China?

At this moment, they are made in a place close to Shanghai. And also, we are, at the moment, we are building a factory in Indiana, the United States.

Have you invented some new numbers in a new business plan? How big is this going to get?

As I said, 40% of commercial rooftops got structure issue. 40% of commercial rooftops, factory rooftops, they’ve got a structure issue. So, they cannot handle the weight. You either need to spend a lot of money to strengthen the mechanical support for glass panels. Or you can simply use sometimes a lightweight panel to directly put on your roof. You can save a lot of cost and labour.

So, just big picture. Are you going to raise hundreds of millions of dollars again? Or how much you investing in this?

Yeah, we are already in over $100 million investment. And, you know, this year our revenue will be over US$100 million. So, in the last three years, the revenue has been doubling every year. So, we see the snowball getting big again. That’s how innovation happens. Initially you have an idea, then you start to research, you get a prototype product, then you go to market to educate people. It’s a painful process, you have to be patient. And then like once people start to accept the product and work with them and accept the product, and the more people will come to you, it is like a snowball. You’re getting bigger and bigger. Yeah. This will be an important part of solar industry in the future. I envision with the next three to five years, the innovation for solar is not necessary at like efficiency. Efficiencies that we already got 26%. Theoretical efficiency is 29.4%. Now the industry production is already over 25%. I only have little gap, but more importantly, how we deploy a solar fast. We cannot supply solar – we cannot supply it enough. We cannot install the solar fast enough. The reason for that? Because especially, for example, in Australia, Australia wants to become a hydrogen superpower. We have to use green energy to decompose water to generate hydrogen. Not coal, not natural gas. So, we need more solar. So, that’s new. We have to have huge capacity to make enough solar panels and to install enough solar panels fast enough.

Okay. So, do you think it could be bigger than Suntech?

Anything’s possible.

Will you make these cells in Australia potentially?

Why not?

Why not? Just talking globally. How do you see solar fitting into the renewables landscape? Do you think that there’s just effectively unlimited growth potential?

I think in the next 30 to 40 years is unlimited, because if we’re talking solar to solar in Australia, actually there’s a project from sand to solar. You’ve got enough quartz sand because you know, like silicon is the second most abundant element on the Earth’s crust. Australia got so many quartz mines, SiO2. In Australia we can turn this SiO2 into silicon. Then you can imagine the whole supply chain: silicon then quartz; silicon then silicon wafer, cells, modules and solar plant, then hydrogen. You use hydrogen store, but hydrogen – we’ve really come to that where Australia can be – like we have so much in minerals, right? We can start to refine minerals, use hydrogen locally. We can have like a refinement industry here, but green refinement. We use hydrogen. Not like we use carbon, as the industry has been using carbon. So, imagine that Australia could be a green manufacturing superpower.

That’s the Ross Garnaut vision isn’t it. That we use renewable energy, cheap renewable energy to revive manufacturing here.

But it can be achieved. So, this is a – should be a top-down strategy. This should be a national strategy. People in Canberra should really visualise this, I believe they do, but realise this. That’s very important.

You are currently living and working between Australia and China. How does it compare, the two countries, in the way they’re using solar?

I think it’s very common in both China and Australia – they very much see, you know, solar is really a future of energy. China’s not only deploying solar. China has been the largest solar market in the last five, six years. You know, this year, 2023, China is going to install over 100 gigawatts in solar panels.

A hundred gigawatts.

Yeah. And in the first six months is already over 60 gigawatts. So, I think Australia now – because in Australia, of course, consumption of electricity is much smaller: I think in the last few years is around like five to six gigawatts per year. Kilowatt per head I think is also, you know, the leading country in the world. But, of course, China will continue to deploy renewable energy. For example, EV cars, right? In Shanghai, 50% of vehicles are electric now.

Now? Already on the road.

Yes. If you stand on the highway, you cannot hear much noise. So, I think this is already happening. And I believe Australia is also – can already see the acceleration of EV deployment here. But again, as you know, we believe Australia will become hydrogen superpower. We need more solar panels. You know, we need local manufactures. So, the whole supply chain. Not just like – I believe solar not just like provide us a green energy, but also provide us a green economy growth. Is a new engine for economy growth. Is like IT 15–20 years ago. IT was like a new engine, right? To fuel a new round of growth. But now solar and renewable energy, you know, is doing that this moment.

Do you think we can export renewables?

Of course. And we can export hydrogen, for example. We can become a local manufacture – local like a mineral refinement using hydrogen.

Because that’s always been the criticism, hasn’t it. We’re such an important fossil fuel exporter: coal and gas. But how do we replace that export income if we switch to renewables? You know, its unproven.

Yes. If we use solar to desalinate seawater, right, then Australia like will not have problems with water shortage. We can absorb more people here to live.

That brings me to one of the last questions I have here. Mentorship has played a strong role in your career, establishing a new solar industry in China, for example. Today you are passionate about teaching and sharing your knowledge with others. What’s the importance of having mentor figures in science.

Is very important in my life. Like Professor Green, you know, has been my mentor. And especially as a professor, he gives me direction – crystalline silicon slim film. Then I have freedom to explore the possibilities. And also, I like Martin’s style. Because if you want to mentor the next generation, you’ve got to give them guidance. At the same time, give them freedom, you know, and a responsibility. So that’s very important and that’s also what I try to do. For example, I supervise like 15 students this moment in the university. And because I have quite a few companies, right, they have very good research platform laboratories compared to universities these days – you know, they’re much advanced. So, I encourage my students: Okay, you got to work in the company, the real projects. And of course, once you have to use computer to do a simulation, you can do that in the universities – a combination of theory and practice. So, I think to train students in that way is very important – is like sort of pre-employment. So, to engage them in the employment of students in the real world; we train them the right skill for the future career.

Dr Shi, thank you very much. Could you please join me in a round of applause? To follow the program online you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And visit the 100 Climate Conversations exhibition or join us for a live recording, go to 100climateconversations.com.

This is a significant new project for the museum and the records of these conversations will form a new climate change archive preserved for future generations in the Powerhouse collection of over 500,000 objects that tell the stories of our time. It is particularly important to First Nations peoples to preserve conversations like this, building on the oral histories and traditions of passing down our knowledges, sciences and innovations which we know allowed our Countries to thrive for tens of thousands of years.